The final chapter and conclusion of this book! This is Chapter 6: Demonizing the Heretics - The Enemy Within, in the book: The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics, by Elaine Pagels.
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Origin of Satan - Chapter 6
[00:00:00] Don Early: What's up everyone. This is Don Early. So last episode we continually pronounced Celsus wrong. It's actually pronounced Kel-sus. It's spelled really, really close to Celsius. So, you know, that's kind of what we went with, but having listened to actual historians pronounce his name, well, the more, you know. It's not Sell-sus it's Kel-sus. Whoopsies.
[00:00:26] That said, we made it! The final chapter and conclusion of Elaine Pagel's book, The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics. This is the Devil You Don't Know. [00:01:00]
[00:00:59] I, I wish we could play copyrighted music. I wanna play the final countdown right now. It's final countdown. Cause this is the end of the book. We've been reading this book.
[00:01:10] Jeremy Spray: How long have we been reading this only seven chaptered book? It's been a while. We've.
[00:01:18] Emily Quann: Elaine Pagels, you are absolutely brilliant. What you have put in this book I can't even imagine the amount of research it took you. The amount of thought that went into it. I, I just adore you for going through the process of writing this. I don't like reading nonfiction. It's nothing against you, Elaine. It's it's a perfect book. I just, I want my murder mysteries.
[00:01:43] Jeremy Spray: It's fair. Don.
[00:01:45] Emily Quann: I like fiction. And I like fiction where I, where I have a task, which is to solve the murder, put clues together. And honestly, if, if I'm not reading that, then, then I'm probably not enjoying the book. [00:02:00] Uh, and so I am not the person to give a fair critique of this book, but I do appreciate all the work that went into it.
[00:02:09] It was very thorough, very thoughtful. I am gonna complain about having to read it. So just, I have given my applause to you for that. And now for the rest of the episode, you're gonna have to hear me grumble about it. Just letting you know.
[00:02:26] Jeremy Spray: Don. I, I was reminded after the first chapter that you went into that said, um, so this is a pretty heavy book and that you were super nerding out about it and you loved it, but like you literally had to set context for us a couple times. Like what you need to get is, and we were like, yeah, no, we definitely needed to get that.
[00:02:46] Because there was a lot that needed to be kind of preamble to get into this. So it, I, I agree with Emily, it took a bit to catch that and to get into it. After I had it, or at least set myself in the mindset of what I was looking for [00:03:00] and what it was going to be. Uh, I, I felt like I was able to, to lock it in or at least have some really good, uh, insight and gain a lot of really neat insights out of it that I had never had before.
[00:03:10] Like I learned a hell of a lot by reading this for.
[00:03:12] Don Early: I, I think that's kind of where I'm at too is. I mean, obviously I had prob well, I know about obviously, but I, I had a lot more context going in than you folks did. Um, but, um, but I still have been coming away with just mind blown things happening and, and stuff. But, um, that said, I have to say that this last chapter in conclusion did not include things that I expected would be there.
[00:03:48] Emily Quann: Ooh, like what?
[00:03:50] Don Early: Well, I thought we would get into, because the chapter's called The Enemy Within: Demonizing the Heretics. This is, uh, chapter six. So I thought [00:04:00] we were probably gonna spend some time in the Middle Ages.
[00:04:04] Jeremy Spray: Oh, yeah,
[00:04:04] Don Early: or, you know, or like the witch trials and stuff like that. And no, we don't, we don't,
[00:04:11] Jeremy Spray: no, we get to the origin of what a heretic is.
[00:04:15] Don Early: Yeah.
[00:04:16] We, and, and to be fair to Dr. Pagels is that, she plays to her strengths cuz obviously, you know, going into this she was already renowned for the gnostic gospels and which is also the discover it Nag Hammadi, the Nag Hammadi scriptures that was found and stuff. So she, she puts a lot of that work in here and, and thankfully you didn't have to have read all of that before you read this book.
[00:04:51] Jeremy Spray: Yeah, right. For sure.
[00:04:53] Don Early: Certainly this book could be a jumping off point for those of you out there who might be interested to[00:05:00] learn more about the gnostic gospels. Highly recommend that book. It's gonna be gonna be heavy like this too, although,
[00:05:09] Jeremy Spray: it's a college course.
[00:05:11] Don Early: I've, I've read other text, you know, textbooks or whatever that are, much, much heavier than this book that we're reading.
[00:05:19] I'm waving it up like the listeners can do and see what I'm doing. So I I felt that mostly it read fairly, I don't know, I guess high brow conversational would be a way to talk about it. I mean, you know, it, it's not super thick academic to me, but it's way more academic than the casual reader is usually ready for.
[00:05:45] Jeremy Spray: Agreed.
[00:05:45] Emily Quann: It's me. I'm a casual reader. Now here's the thing I said I don't like reading non-fiction stuff, but what I prefer to [00:06:00] watch are documentaries, especially historical documentaries. So if, if, if somebody can come and turn this book, into like a five part documentary or something. Oh, I would devour that.
[00:06:11] Don Early: Yeah. Well, we've done the best we can to cover at least, discussing the the bits with our personalities in this podcast. Uh, so let's get into the subject of this final chapter and the conclusion, and we'll kind of, kind of go from there. I confess that I did not take as close a notes as I have in previous chapters. I have a myriad of reasons for that. But I also feel like we're getting into stuff where the main highlights of, of the discussion points and of the ideas that are coming through that are so, you know, that are tying off to the title of the book, [00:07:00] The Origin of Satan.
[00:07:01] There's just a lot of detail that is great information for you to read and get a lot on the backstory, but for discussing purposes, I'm not sure that we really need to get into all the nitty gritty of that. I'm sure other podcasts have already done that anyway.
[00:07:19] Don Early: That said let's jump in. So this is The Enemy Within: Demonizing the Heretics. We're of course reading The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans and Heretics, by Elaine Pagels. And, right off the bat the big thing that jumped out at me, and that highlighted, took me all the way back to our episode four with Steve Hill, the Satanist, uh, Satan for
[00:07:49] Emily Quann: Running for Congress.
[00:07:51] Don Early: Yeah. So, on page 149, "when the heads of wealthy households converted, they often required [00:08:00] their families and slaves to accept baptism." And this is again during the second century, so 100 to 200 CE. Obviously slavery is not new that it's been going on for quite some time. And slavery in the classical world looked different than the American slavery, cuz it could be any number of nationalities, but it was still property. You can do a whole podcast on topic of slavery, but the point being is that, you know, as a slave, you don't have a choice if your master tells you, "Okay, you're a Christian now."
[00:08:43] Jeremy Spray: Right.
[00:08:44] Don Early: "This household, this entire household is Christian now." And so we're,
[00:08:47] Jeremy Spray: " We're all insane. We, we all reject nature together. We all fight the pagan ways. We all say that everything that we have known and loved and grown up with our entire life is [00:09:00] wrong. And I don't care what you believe. You believe what I believe."
[00:09:03] Don Early: Yep. And what's interesting is that, she says that conversions occurred more often among the women of the household, as well as among merchants, traders, soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of slaves serving in every capacity in Roman society. And, and that's interesting because we're talking about a sort of a class system, you know, or a group of people that tend to convert to Christianity, that happen to be part of these nondominant groups of people. Which, once again, the promise of Christianity seems to be that if your situation sucks, it's because the devil is in charge and God has already won. And so just hold tight. If you happen to get killed because you're a Christian, don't [00:10:00] worry because you're just making God win faster.
[00:10:04] Jeremy Spray: Right. You're you're working your way up, but remember to renounce everything, renounce the devil and everything else in the background.
[00:10:10] Don Early: Yep. You gotta renounce it. That comes up again.
[00:10:14] Emily Quann: Oh, it does.
[00:10:15] Don Early: Yeah. So I, I, just, to me that just jumps out again as history progresses and as slavery becomes less acceptable or even abolished or, you know, that sort of thing. You know, Steve had mentioned why, why would slaves continue to, uh, how did he put it? I'm gonna paraphrase, but it's something like, why, why should slaves continue to follow the, the religion of their owners?
[00:10:47] Jeremy Spray: Right.
[00:10:48] Emily Quann: mm-hmm
[00:10:48] Jeremy Spray: I was forced upon.
[00:10:50] Don Early: How can they believe in the same God as the owners.
[00:10:55] Emily Quann: As the people who owned them.
[00:10:57] Don Early: Yeah. And it, it is kind of a, [00:11:00] I don't know, I find that sick. I mean, again, in this chapter, we find really as Christianity gains ground and becomes more dominant, becomes, uh, full-fledged religion and it like they have now priests and bishops and, and now they're being concerned about false teaching by other Christians.
[00:11:28] Emily Quann: As I was reading this, uh, sometimes I, I make up like little chapters in my head. This one was, How Bishops are Made. Anyway, uh, see, see the things I find to I entertain myself to, to get myself through something I'm not enjoying yeah, We're building bishops here.
[00:11:52] Jeremy Spray: But why, why go ahead and explain on that? Because I thought that was a real interesting section as well for the bishops.
[00:11:57] Emily Quann: Me?
[00:11:58] Jeremy Spray: Yeah you. You were talking about it.[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Emily Quann: Yeah. The, I, I made up a a chapter heading for it. Don can explain.
[00:12:06] Don Early: I can jump in a little bit. So there's this controversy that was starting to happen in the formation of this early church where the sort of dominant or majority Christian organization was starting to formulate a hierarchy and a priesthood and a sort of right way to hand down the gospel or, or, and do the teachings and, And, and answer the question.: What does it mean to be a Christian? Right. And so in, in doing that, they adopt the Roman military administration practice of organizing into districts, which were called diocese. And each administered by a central overseer or Bishop in an organized strategy that [00:13:00] still exists today.
[00:13:01] Jeremy Spray: That was news to me. I knew that it was a thing. I knew what they were called. I had, didn't had no idea where they came from or why they were called diocese. And when I, when I heard that it was like, holy crap, that is 2000 year old Roman military, which is exactly what it sounds like, like it so suddenly clicked for me.
[00:13:18] So the idea of the. It's not a- Well it's kind of a pyramid, but really a, a rank and file within the Catholic churches is what I'm thinking of right now. I'm thinking of Roman Catholic. Uh, but, but in other churches as well, like it, that was one where it was like, yes, now we are setting up because it works really well there.
[00:13:39] And, and we know that there's gonna be several factions of us, but we wanna make sure that everyone's getting the same orders and the same message. So we're gonna set up our diocese, we're gonna set up a Bishop over them. And then above them, there'll be an Archbishop. And I was like, oh my God, that's where it came from. And it's, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So that was like the thought process behind it.
[00:13:58] But even in the, in [00:14:00] the start of that, like who became a Bishop and how had its own fight, there's, there's its own controversy and, and information around who really gets it and, and understanding that you're giving the right word for all of that.
[00:14:13] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really excited, uh, to have on the show, the hosts of another podcast called Pontifacts. And they do, they do popes. It's all about popes.
[00:14:31] Emily Quann: Oh, wow.
[00:14:32] Don Early: And so I, I got to talking with the, uh, the creators, uh, of that. And, and we kind of have talked a little bit about maybe. Doing some collaboration. And, now where we have gotten into this book, I have questions. And I think they would be awesome to have on the show and, uh, and talk about, and they're hilarious by the way, you should check it out.
[00:14:59] Pontifacts. [00:15:00] It's it's great. And they're not even necessarily Catholic, so, uh, yeah.
[00:15:06] Emily Quann: See, I always equated. Oh, sorry. Go.
[00:15:08] Don Early: One is a historian. And the other one, I think, I think, uh, she recalls herself a recovering Catholic
[00:15:19] Emily Quann: I always considered the bishops, like middle management.
[00:15:22] Don Early: mm-hmm
[00:15:23] Emily Quann: And when I, and when I was reading this, that just kind of felt the same. That's kind of their role, their, yeah.
[00:15:33] Don Early: Except that in this chapter, it was a little confusing to me because I, yeah, there are bishops, in different districts. But they also refer to like the Bishop of the whole Christianity. Right. And yeah.
[00:15:51] Emily Quann: Right because there's got to be a leader.
[00:15:55] Don Early: Yeah. And so we get into a few names, um, Clement being [00:16:00] one and, uh, Clement is, uh, apparently thought to be maybe the third Bishop or maybe even Pope of Christianity. Uh, back then, of course, uh, Peter being the first again, this is where I have questions. Who is the second? How did this come
[00:16:19] Emily Quann: Lost to time.
[00:16:22] Don Early: I don't have a huge burning, but I am curious now, particularly, that this Clement person, we spend a bit of time in the chapter about Clement. Um, and we there's a writing First Clement. I'm not sure if there's a Second Clement, um, that might be in the Apocrypha? I haven't pulled that out in a while, but I, I First Clement does ring a bell be having seen that in scriptures or collections or whatever.
[00:16:53] Jeremy Spray: Sorry for my blank, stare. I, I cannot help you with that one. I, I
[00:16:57] Don Early: Yeah, no, no, I, I get it. Yeah. We, we would [00:17:00] need some Catholics to help with that. I I'm pretty sure, but, the point is, is, is Clement is of course arguing for the formal organization of the church and having, you know, a specific laid down priesthood and a separation between laity and the priesthood. Laity being, not lady, but LAY-AH-TEE. Um, I can kinda mash my words
[00:17:34] Jeremy Spray: I was, I was like, they did that though. That that's also a thing, but yeah, the other one
[00:17:39] Don Early: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. So, uh, but what I did not, this is, this was new for me is that there was so canonization is happening right now, canonization of the New Testament, like which books are gonna be officially recognized.
[00:17:54] Jeremy Spray: So they're, they're trying to determine what is it, what it is that's gonna make the Bible and what it is that, that isn't gonna make the Bible.
[00:17:59] Emily Quann: [00:18:00] Bunch of old white guys in a room, figuring out what books are, are gonna be chosen to dictate the rest of our lives.
[00:18:09] Don Early: Yeah, right.
[00:18:12] Emily Quann: How we live, what we're supposed to do.
[00:18:14] Don Early: Yeah. So the, the New Testament is being canonized and the key word here is, unity and, like-belief. Right? So
[00:18:26] Jeremy Spray: Because they want everyone to be the same and they want everyone to stay together.
[00:18:30] Don Early: Mm-hmm yeah. So, and it's, and they're also accepting the New Testament books that are really teaching you how to be a community, right. As opposed to individual enlightenment paths, which were shut in a cave or burned
[00:18:51] Jeremy Spray: We'll get to that in a little bit. But yeah, that, there, there was a whole group of those people who were like, oh, wait, it's not about being together. Like sh sh sh no, [00:19:00] don't talk to you.
[00:19:01] Don Early: But what, so what I was gonna say is that another canonization is happening that I did not know about until this book, which is, um, a collection of writings included called something about like The Apostolic Fathers of the Church. And it is a collection of writings that dictate how to run a Christian Church. How to run the Christian organization.
[00:19:26] Jeremy Spray: It's it's the business manual,
[00:19:29] Don Early: Yeah, it's, it's a, a cannon of church tradition, what it kind of comes down to. It says, uh, several writings included in the apostolic fathers sought to revise and in effect domesticate, for the new influx of converts such radical sayings as, uh, of Jesus as these, "You cannot serve God and money" or "Give to whoever ask, sell that all you give, you know, said all that you have and give the money to poor", instead, they're like, well, maybe you should pay attention to that. [00:20:00] Give your money to the church. Included in the, uh, Apostolic Fathers, it was a famous Christian handbook called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, which, um, paraphrases Jesus's primary teaching as follows: "Love God in your neighbor and whatever you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others", bringing that negative back. So that's fun.
[00:20:24] Jeremy Spray: Yeah.
[00:20:25] Don Early: And so we get, we talk a little bit about The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. We talk a little bit another, um, writing that was included was the Letter of Barnabas, which attributes similar moral teaching to Paul's companion and fellow preacher Barnabas. But what was interesting about this, uh, Barnabas interprets the 10 commandments for Christians as requiring at least 40 specific injunctions. You know, it's just, we're gonna. Oh, the 10 Commandments? [00:21:00] Yeah, it's more like 40 now. And we really got a, you know, deep dive, the 10 commandments, didn't say anything about having sex with, you know, young boys. So we gotta, uh, put that down on there. Uh, I support that one by the way. Um,
[00:21:15] Emily Quann: Thank you.
[00:21:18] Don Early: But, as in like no sex with young boys.
[00:21:21] Jeremy Spray: Right. Got it. Yeah. You, you support, you support the opposition
[00:21:24] Don Early: Yeah, yeah. The opposition of to that is a good idea.
[00:21:26] Jeremy Spray: Thank you for clarifying. It was not necessary, but we got you.
[00:21:29] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:31] The whole point though, with, with Barnabas. Uh, so he, he, you know, explodes with all the rules and stuff. But the main thing is, is Barnabas urges them to, uh, exercise moral vigilance so that the Devil may have no opportunity to enter the church, even though the days are evil and the evil doer is still in power.
[00:21:54] And, Barnabas is significant just because he sets the tone [00:22:00] for Christian tradition for the next 2000 years.
[00:22:04] Jeremy Spray: Right,
[00:22:05] Don Early: Very, very influential. So, uh, and again, the Devils in charge, but we won.
[00:22:13] Jeremy Spray: And you'll be. And I think you made a really good point there. It, it wasn't exact direct, but for me it was one of those that like for someone who kind of literally created the rule book and, and said, these are what the laws were, these are what you do now. How did I never know this guy's name? How did I never hear of this guy?
[00:22:35] Right? It was, it was something that was very much created as a part of the church and a part of the design. And like, like we said, the playbook,
[00:22:44] Don Early: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Jeremy Spray: it it's just, it's not taught that way. It's, it's just taught that that is Word of God, that, that this is, this is given you from God. This is Jesus's word. And like Barnabas got taken out of it. I just find
[00:22:56] Don Early: And maybe it's more common in [00:23:00] Catholicism. I don't know. Maybe they, maybe they teach that,
[00:23:02] Emily Quann: Yeah, I had never
[00:23:03] Don Early: I, I've never heard of it,
[00:23:04] Emily Quann: Growing up Lutheran. I had never heard of it either.
[00:23:07] Don Early: Yeah. Side note. I did appreciate the shade. She, she, uh,
[00:23:11] Emily Quann: Martin Luther
[00:23:12] Don Early: Luther in this. I was like, and then, uh, 1400 years later, Martin Luther would, uh, call his fellow Christians, other Catholics, agents of the Devil and
[00:23:28] Emily Quann: Or not just other Catholics. Other Protestants.
[00:23:31] Don Early: Oh yeah. Other Protestants, definitely the Jews. Yeah. He was a special guy. That guy. uh, Elaine right. Brings up very correct points.
[00:23:45] Emily Quann: He loved his beer and pretzels.
[00:23:47] Don Early: He did and music.
[00:23:49] Jeremy Spray: Germans.
[00:23:50] Don Early: Yeah,
[00:23:51] Emily Quann: Woohoo.
[00:23:54] Don Early: It's kind of like. You know, grabbing heavy metal songs and [00:24:00] making them and writing Christian lit
[00:24:02] Emily Quann: Hymns. Yeah.
[00:24:03] Jeremy Spray: Yeah.
[00:24:04] Don Early: Alright enough about Luther for now, but so around 180 CE, we get to Iranaeus and Iranaeus is another person who, uh, I had heard of him before this book, but I didn't really know much about him.
[00:24:26] And so he's another sort of father of the Christian Church, so to speak and wrote five volumes uh, attacking deviant Christians, whom he called heretics. And basically calling them secret agents of Satan. Secret agent Satan. Anyway,
[00:24:48] Jeremy Spray: I loved was, was at this point when, uh, Elaine just took a side step real quick and was like, Hey, let's create footnotes here real quick to talk about, uh, what a heretic is, what the [00:25:00] heresy terms come from, where it is written Greek. And then just, was it this chapter or the last one that went into Gnostics?
[00:25:07] Emily Quann: It was
[00:25:08] Jeremy Spray: It, this was the one with Gnosis, right? Yeah. I I just had a whole big thing of that, but yeah, I, I just, I really like that. The heretics, they're heretics. Well, what is a heretics? Well, they ask questions and that you're not allowed to make choices and ask questions. This is the church God damnit!. God damnit! I was like, whoa,
[00:25:29] Emily Quann: the We don't think here.
[00:25:31] Jeremy Spray: Which is, You do not ask questions or make choices. You follow the church! God damn it!
[00:25:39] Don Early: That's right. Hey, all you people, the you weird Christians, uh, who are not real Christians. Uh, let's take all your stuff and shove it in a cave and then never talk about you for another 2000 years anyway.
[00:25:54] Jeremy Spray: I was half under the impression that the people were also shoved in the cave.
[00:25:57] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think they were or [00:26:00] burned, um, you know,
[00:26:02] Jeremy Spray: You get all the, all the, the hippie Christians, whatever they were the, certainly the outcasts for their different ways and different thoughts of questions.
[00:26:14] Don Early: So. Upper Egypt, 1945 near the town of Nag Hammadi they make a giant discovery of a whole bunch of ancient writings of some weird
[00:26:27] Emily Quann: Weird. Shit. Hm.
[00:26:29] Don Early: That no one ever thought was a thing. And apparently was a thing the whole time. And so sidestep, gnostic gospels, if you wanna go read Elaine Pagels' book, The Gnostic Gospels, it's gonna be all about that. So go check that out. And there is also another collection. You actually can grab a book called the Nag Hammadi scriptures, which just is a English translation of the whole, the whole ball of wax. So [00:27:00] check that out. If that interests you. I'm really interested in reading this next one that we're gonna talk about though, um, called The Testimony of Truth. This was a writing that was found in this collection, that clearly Iranaeus and Barnabas and Clement would've fucking hated.
[00:27:23] Jeremy Spray: And
[00:27:24] Emily Quann: nothing to do with it.
[00:27:25] Don Early: One thing that I, I thought was interesting is how much time we spend on scriptures and writings that were found in 1945, rather than, writings that we already had. You know, I mean, we spent some time here talking about The Apostolic Fathers and, Clement and Barnabas and, and that sort of thing. So we've got that
[00:27:51] Jeremy Spray: You mean in this particular chapter?
[00:27:53] Don Early: But in this chapter we spend a lot. Yeah. We spend a lot of time on [00:28:00] stuff that apparently may have been taken out of circulation, like at that point.
[00:28:08] Emily Quann: Was The Gospel of Philip found in 1945 too?.
[00:28:11] Don Early: I think so.
[00:28:13] Emily Quann: Oh, okay.
[00:28:14] Don Early: Yeah.
[00:28:15] Jeremy Spray: And The Gospel of Thomas was found at a different time. Was that, was that around the same findings?
[00:28:19] Don Early: I
[00:28:20] Emily Quann: I thought that was earlier.
[00:28:21] Jeremy Spray: Yeah, I thought that was
[00:28:22] Don Early: Was it? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. Dead Sea Scrolls.
[00:28:25] Jeremy Spray: Dead Sea Scrolls, right? Yeah.
[00:28:27] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. You know, now that I think of it, I think I've always thought of those two things to be the same. Maybe they are the same.
[00:28:35] Jeremy Spray: I, I, I did. I, I know that I put them together that the Dead Sea Scrolls were like, oh, these, this is the great big buried secret that the Vatican has been trying to hide. This was the, this was the other half of the New Testament that they're like, if people read this, they're never gonna follow what we want and they're never gonna be united.
[00:28:55] They're never gonna stand their diocese. They're gonna start going off and doing their thing and [00:29:00] asking fricking questions. So hide it, bury it. And, and that's, that was how I connected the two.
[00:29:06] But the Nag Hammadi are, are different. Right. They, they that's the actual ones that I thought The Dead Sea Rolls were.
[00:29:12] Don Early: Uh, it could have been, um, I, I, I, the confusion is warranted. I did a quick Google search and they are two separate things that happened roughly around the same time. Um, in the 1940s, The Dead Sea Scrolls were found and the scriptures, the codices in the Naga, you know, near Nag Hammadi
[00:29:31] Jeremy Spray: Yo, if it was like the same dude finding both of those, that is a whole big chunk of evidence towards like time travel.
[00:29:40] Don Early: Yeah. Sounds
[00:29:41] Jeremy Spray: We gotta reveal these before they're gone. Let's let's suddenly make them like, oh wow. I'm the most amazing archeologist anyone's ever seen. What's that over there. Did anyone look in that cave? That's my thought. That's what he sounds like by the way that that's the time traveling arch archeologist. Oh my there's [00:30:00] another thing right here. This whole shiny. Is that a grail? Is this a holy grail? How fancy. Someone, someone hang onto this disappears again. Okay.
[00:30:10] It's my bit.
[00:30:11] Don Early: The, uh, Charlie-in-the-box from the, uh, Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer.
[00:30:18] Emily Quann: God, not this again.
[00:30:22] Jeremy Spray: It
[00:30:23] Emily Quann: Oh fuck. There's not enough alcohol in the world to get through this.
[00:30:32] Don Early: Okay. Testimony of Truth. This comes from the Nag Hammadi scriptures, the codices, and it is a "wow text." It, it,
[00:30:46] Jeremy Spray: It flips it, man. It, it flips the script so many times.
[00:30:51] Don Early: Literally flips it.
[00:30:52] Emily Quann: Everything just inside out.
[00:30:55] Don Early: So, so first off, it definitely is asking that question or, [00:31:00] or, uh, trying to find out: what is the gospel? What is the true testimony about Jesus and his message? I mean, basically, you know, this ancient, ancient writing is tackling the same things reformers, you know, centuries later centuries upon centuries would, would be doing, you know?
[00:31:22] And it's just fascinating and, but what's really interesting is that it insists on practicing asceticism. So we use that word quite a bit. And if you're not familiar with what aestheticism means, it's, it's really like the self discipline and avoidance of all indulgences for religious re reasons or something.
[00:31:47] The practice of celibacy in the Catholic church is a form of aestheticism, you know, sort of depriving yourself of
[00:31:56] Emily Quann: Pleasures.
[00:31:57] Don Early: Yeah.
[00:31:58] Jeremy Spray: Yeah of [00:32:00] pleasures, right?
[00:32:00] Don Early: Severe self discipline. Sounds like a whole lot of wasted time and energy and, uh, flushing joy down the toilet. And that's really what the nos sticks. And we'll get into this too, that the tics and, you know, the, you know, a lot of these are around finding God through, denying earthly pleasures or, or experiences. Right. You know, the holy and the divine is found in the transcendent and it is through the mind, you know, and, and that sort of thing.
[00:32:37] So, uh, coming to know God requires that one RENOUNCE everything else here now we're we're doing the renouncing thing again.
[00:32:46] Jeremy Spray: turn away.
[00:32:47] Don Early: No one knows the God of truth, except the one alone who renounces all the things of the world. Ppppppttt. Page 156, a [00:33:00] huge fan of the word renounce. But uh, Justin gets a last name.
[00:33:06] Emily Quann: I know. I was so glad to see him pop up again.
[00:33:08] Don Early: yeah. Justin gets a last name. His last name
[00:33:12] Emily Quann: martyr, Justin martyr. How fitting.
[00:33:16] Jeremy Spray: Justin Martyr
[00:33:19] Don Early: Yep. Yeah. So he clearly was an aesthetic though, you know? Right. Cuz he, he was following that, self enlightenment kind of practice or whatever. Then we get into, uh, asceticism to the point of self mutilation. That's fun. You know, Christians
[00:33:39] Jeremy Spray: No,
[00:33:39] Emily Quann: like the self-flagellation. And are you
[00:33:43] Don Early: castration.
[00:33:45] Emily Quann: talking about specifically like,
[00:33:46] Don Early: Yeah. So you don't get horny.
[00:33:50] Jeremy Spray: And right. One of the, uh, there was one of the guys that requested it, that he, he went to the surgeons and they refused him.
[00:33:56] Don Early: Yeah. Justin, in fact, [00:34:00] uh, he even singled out for a special praise. Uh, oh, sorry. No, he didn't. Uh, there was a young convert in Alexandria who had petitioned, Felix, the governor, that he'd be castrated. And, uh, the governors was like, abso-fucking-lutely not. You, you do not have my permission to do that because you're. Weird. One of those weird
[00:34:21] Jeremy Spray: right. Christian.
[00:34:22] Don Early: Now you're now you're chopping your balls. What the hell is this religion? Anyway. Good. Gods. Origen, remember Origen from last session. He was like, fuck it. I'm gonna do it myself. Whack. He cuts his own balls off. He didn't ask permission from anybody. What is religion's problem with sex?
[00:34:45] Jeremy Spray: Like all religions? Or you
[00:34:47] Don Early: It's yeah, I mean,
[00:34:50] Emily Quann: I don't know.
[00:34:51] Don Early: I'm sure. I mean, obviously that's a huge, huge question and we're not gonna answer it today, but, but I'm just even thinking back to [00:35:00] paganism. Yeah. I mean maybe more freeform sex was acceptable, but the, the philosophers always talk about calming the passions of the flesh and, and all that. Religions have had problems with sexuality for a long time, and I just, I'm really curious. Maybe that'll be my next rabbit hole. Really curious what the, why it, why it's so nasty.
[00:35:26] Emily Quann: Probably because temptation, I mean, you're tempted to have sex. There's desire. Desire is a temptation and, and that's usually temptation is brought about by evil forces. And so in, in that regards, uh, sex or. I, I, I don't know that it's, it would just be a,
[00:35:45] Don Early: Do you think it has to do with rape?
[00:35:46] Jeremy Spray: Not as much maybe as it has to do with control,
[00:35:50] Don Early: Okay.
[00:35:51] Jeremy Spray: Its, at its basis at its heart, as an atheist, I see a big form of religion in is having [00:36:00] control or giving control or get giving someone certainly at least a sense of control of understanding and, uh, sex in general I is, is so primal it's so literally carnal, that, uh, that can be out of control it. It can feel wild. It can feel disconnected. And, um, frankly, it can be scary at first, cuz it it's so much taking over that. There is, in my opinion, a, a level of by controlling the sex by, or at least by giving someone a, a sense of what they can and can't do or should, or shouldn't do a around it, it feeds into that original, uh, reason for the religion in the first place.
[00:36:50] Right? It, it, it just speaks to that same message of sex is good. Sex is not good or this is the control you can have. And this is the control. You, you don't feel like you can get [00:37:00] so by not doing it or by doing it under certain, very certain restrictions and, and cutting these things off, you now have a level of control.
[00:37:09] Don Early: That makes a lot of sense and what you're saying also kind of brings up the notion that obviously animals have sex and people can see that they can, they can observe that happening in the wild and people
[00:37:26] Emily Quann: We're supposed to be better than the
[00:37:27] Don Early: We are not animals. We are humans. And so that, so going back to the real basic dichotomy that we've talked about in the very beginning, the, uh, us versus them human versus not human, and maybe because sex is considered, you know, so bestial or wild or not human could, could play into that.
[00:37:58] I dunno.[00:38:00]
[00:38:06] Jeremy Spray: right. Yeah,
[00:38:07] Don Early: Yeah, as we have seen really the other way around the viewpoints on sex has inspired what we think of the devil. And, uh, because we've had whoop, we've had, um, you know, gods and goddesses that were all about sexuality and having fun and, you know, drink and partying and, and all that stuff. And then when things get Christianized, then all that becomes evil and demonic. Yeah. We haven't even gotten to the good stuff on yet on this one. The Testimony. I'm talking about, The Testimony of Truth. Nag Hammadi. God, I love this thing. [00:39:00] Testimony even claims that the God, whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is himself, one of the fallen angels. Indeed. The Chief of the fallen angels, Satan himself. What?!
[00:39:18] Jeremy Spray: Hebrew God is Satan himself. The Chief of the fallen angels. Go on.
[00:39:27] Don Early: Yeah. So, uh, I'm on page 159 here: the author of Testimony of Truth goes far beyond protesting Christians of the Reformation and later times, asking questions, like what is the light? What is the darkness and who is the one who created the world? Who is God and who are the angels? And what is the governance of the world and why are some lame and blind and rich and poor. And so
[00:39:54] Emily Quann: So So that was Tucker Carlson going through my head because that's what he [00:40:00] does. He asks those stupid questions. So, so why is this? And what does that mean? Does that mean this? And
[00:40:06] Don Early: Yeah, exactly. But you have to have resting dumb fuck face,
[00:40:10] Emily Quann: Right. But, but that whole paragraph of questions, I was just like, oh, this is some Tucker Carlson bullshit here.
[00:40:16] Don Early: What is the light and what is even darkness? What is air? Isn't aren't these foils of the Devil? I dunno. That's not my Tucker
[00:40:26] Jeremy Spray: I'm mad seeing your impression of him. Hah! It's, pretty good..
[00:40:32] Emily Quann: Nah, fuck him.
[00:40:34] Don Early: Fuck that guy.
[00:40:35] Emily Quann: Sorry. Just have to put that in there.
[00:40:36] Don Early: Fuck him in the nose hole.
[00:40:39] Emily Quann: Ooo, ouch!
[00:40:40] Don Early: Yeah. With pliers. Anyway, I don't mean violence. What am I talking about? I don't I don't wish violence. He's a dip shit. Resting dip shit face.
[00:40:51] Jeremy Spray: Right, for sure. That is, that is definitely true.
[00:40:54] Don Early: Testimony of Truth.
[00:40:56] So approaching the Genesis story with [00:41:00] questions like these. Holy fucking shit. The teacher discovers the teacher, the, the, the writer of this, um, Testimony of Truth, discovers that the truth is only revealed when you read the story in reverse! Recognizing that God is the villain and the serpent is the Holy One. Holy shit.
[00:41:27] Jeremy Spray: Based on the fact that the serpent provided knowledge to the creation or based on the fact that those who were created were created out of evil?
[00:41:40] Emily Quann: God lied and said, if you eat this fruit, you're gonna die.
[00:41:45] And the serpent said, oh no, you won't die. You'll gain knowledge. Who was telling the truth and who was lying? Who was deceiving who? It was God deceiving Eve, and the serpent was [00:42:00] telling the truth. Therefore, the serpent was the truthful being that's that's God, that's I don't know, all-knowing?
[00:42:09] Don Early: God gets all fucking pissed off and curses the, the serpent. Kicks the two humans out of the garden and punishes Eve for being a woman! Childbirth is gonna be fucking painful now. You're welcome. But the point is, it's a very good point. They actually do what the serpent says and what God said would happen did not happen.
[00:42:42] Jeremy Spray: Yeah, it's true.
[00:42:43] Don Early: They did not die
[00:42:45] Jeremy Spray: Immediately.
[00:42:46] Don Early: Immediately, may. So, you know, and I'm sure that's, "Well, God actually meant, you know, they were gonna be immortal before, but now-"
[00:42:54] Jeremy Spray: Almost did it. The exact voice I was taught in Bible school. When I, as a heretic, asked these questions [00:43:00] and they're like, "Well, they were eternal. They were immortal in Garden of Eden and then God kicked them out. So now they were mortal. They could only live for 1800 years a piece, which is really not that very long." It was like, oh-kay.
[00:43:12] Don Early: Yeah. So the writer says that the serpent is Jesus. The serpent is Christ in disguise, trying to liberate the humans from the tyranny of this God who is actually the Devil. The God of the Hebrew Bible is actually Satan, is what this is saying. What kind of God is this God? Surely he has shown himself to be a malicious envior. Yeah. Says the author of Testimony. Not only is this God jealous of his own creation, he's also ignorant and vindictive.
[00:43:54] Jeremy Spray: Genesis is a big book. Do you guys remember the last time you read Genesis?
[00:43:58] Don Early: Yeah, it's, it's a lot longer [00:44:00] than it
[00:44:00] Jeremy Spray: Because in my head, like it's the Adam and Eve story, right? That's not Genesis. That, that is, that is a very, very small chunk of the beginning of Genesis.
[00:44:09] But then it goes into all begets. The Noah's Ark story is in there, right?
[00:44:14] God literally destroying his entire creation. Tower of Babel's a part of Genesis. Like, come on. There's a lot of amazing mythology and stories in there. And if you were reading those, looking at that and going, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. And you're telling me that he is this merciful being who as sent his only begotten son. Like these are not adding up to me.
[00:44:36] Emily Quann: Old Testament God is very, very different than New Testament God.
[00:44:40] Jeremy Spray: That dude's the bad guy. And like, I, I get it. Like I can see the thought-process that would create this, book and these writings. I can also see how the rest of this brand new church with their very first diocese or whatnot are like, we gotta shut this down, now! And doing [00:45:00] everything they can to, to keep that power.
[00:45:02] Don Early: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:45:03] Emily Quann: Well, it goes back to also in, in previous podcasts that we did, I'm talking about like the first and second ones even, we talked about, how can we think of God as this benevolent being when, if he is all powerful, all knowing omnipotent, how, how does God, who loves all of us, allow all of these horrible things to happen?
[00:45:34] You know, God is not very godlike in, in this book.
[00:45:38] Don Early: Yeah. In fact, he's the opposite
[00:45:42] Emily Quann: Well true.
[00:45:44] Don Early: But, and then it goes on to some really gonzo things afterwards, and then she, she brings in a couple of other writings that kind of support this or say, okay, well maybe we're not gonna go that extreme and, and call God the [00:46:00] Devil. But what it really comes down to is that there is, it is this growing number of Christians who are saying, we know the real gospel and this Christianity as a large thing is actually continued to be seduced by the devil. And, and I, I kept going back to the Essenes. You know,
[00:46:26] Jeremy Spray: Yes. I was too.
[00:46:28] Don Early: The Essenes were doing that to the, to the Jewish faith. It was like, we're the real Jews. All the much larger group of Judaism is apostate. They've lost their inheritance and they are not part of, of this anymore. Well, Christians are like, well, it's worse than that.
[00:46:51] Emily Quann: Yeah. Here's how it really works.
[00:46:54] Don Early: Not only are they apostate, but they are of the devil and we should kill them. And they [00:47:00] did!
[00:47:00] Jeremy Spray: Then they did.
[00:47:03] Emily Quann: Oh. And we're not laughing that a lot of people got killed.
[00:47:06] Don Early: No,
[00:47:07] Emily Quann: As you guys are chuckling over there. "And they killed them!" Ha ha ha! No.
[00:47:11] Don Early: No, uh, laughing at the absurdity, I suppose. But we're seeing the, the, the building and the formulation of control and it's going, like you said, Jeremy, it ain't broken, don't fix it. Let's go grab the hierarchy from Judaism that we all are pretty already familiar with. Let's let's do that. Let's, uh, pull in some Roman, uh, military structures. That makes kind a lot of sense. Oh, let's, uh, in fact, let's ignore a lot of what's in the New Testament that we really like here. It doesn't actually mean what it means literally here. We need to read into that a little bit more and let's, uh, bring in some of these already written, works [00:48:00] on ethics in how to live in Roman life. And let's just, you we'll change the words so it's more Christian. They'll get included in the New Testament too. Yay, First Peter, First Timothy and so on.
[00:48:13] Then we get Tertullian. Later on in, um, actually he's about the same, same time period as Iranaeus. About 180. But he's really, really all about unanimity and agreement and doctrine and morals and leadership. He's the one that was like, no, no, we all have to believe the same thing. You have choices, then you are a heretic.
[00:48:40] Jeremy Spray: Right. Yeah. It's not about choosing, it's not about feeling what what's right. Or what, what is good to you. It's, you do it the way it's said and the way it's written with specifically with the books that we picked, don't look at the other ones.
[00:48:57] Don Early: Yeah. Questions are what makes heretics. [00:49:00] That's it, that's literally the definition, and all heretics are evil. And how do they come up with these beguiling questions? The Devil!
[00:49:11] Jeremy Spray: Clearly.
[00:49:12] Don Early: Clearly. Clearly, because the Devil is the inventor of false exegesis. You guys remember what that means?
[00:49:19] Jeremy Spray: No.
[00:49:20] Emily Quann: Not at all.
[00:49:21] Jeremy Spray: I heard you say false exit Jesus. And I was like, he'll probably come back to that. I heard it wrong.
[00:49:27] Don Early: Yeah. False scripture referencing and teaching. Teaching from the, the scripture itself.
[00:49:35] Jeremy Spray: Gotcha. Yeah. Okay.
[00:49:37] Don Early: Yeah, moving on, we get, Secret Gospel of John. We get the Reality of Rulers. Lots of really interesting stuff that sort of build on this. There's a lot of wild ideas about what it really means to be a Christian and the correct way to be Christian and all the while we're building this case and [00:50:00] understanding of what heresy and heretics are, and how they should be shut down. And worse later on, as we know. And then she spends quite a bit of time on this gnosis, and ultimately the idea is that, you can understand. You can read. You can interpret, but you have to attain a certain level of understanding or insight or wisdom. And once you've achieved that, that is the more, you know, divine situation. And, and that's where the flesh and the body becomes associated with evil, and spirit and intellect is good. And so, a lot of times gnostics are accused of, uh, being the origin of where Christianity's hatred of physical bodies and sexuality and [00:51:00] deformities and that sort of thing. So that she spends a lot of time on Valentinus. Which is where we get a lot of the, uh, the study on that Gospel of Philip.
[00:51:09] It's summed up essentially that the Other-ism, the Us versus Them. And she takes us through the whole journey, uh, and it really comes full circle. Well, the one thing that we didn't, I didn't really touch on though, is there's that one, I think was in Gospel of Phillip, was it? That the real enemy. Where Satan really- cuz she goes through where, uh, there's versions of Christianity that says Satan doesn't even exist. There is no Devil. God has it handled. God covers both sides. He's he's ambivalent. He covers all of that gamut. And there's that bit where God says I am the only God and Wisdom says, "shut the fuck up Samael. We're here too."
[00:51:59] And, let's [00:52:00] see, where was I going with this? Oh, uh, that the Devil, the real Devil actually exists within yourself. It's your own evil inclinations. And you have to discover that you have your own Devil within you. And it was kind of like the truth will set you free, right. That quote from the Gospel of John. So if you, if you're able to discover the evil tendencies or the, or the Devil within you, then you defeat it. But if you don't, if you don't go on that journey of discovering the evil within you, it takes root, it takes hold, it, it's fruits blossom without, and you just become a piece of shit apparently. Um, and so I thought that was insightful and it it's all summarized if there's threatening and fear, that creates a polarization of a worldview, and that's where we get the Devil. [00:53:00]
[00:53:02] Jeremy Spray: I get it.
[00:53:03] Emily Quann: There you go.
[00:53:04] Don Early: There's two things that I thought we would find here. I, I thought we would talk more about the, um, the Middle Ages and, and that sort of thing, but I see why we didn't. I see, that that's heresy and, and the stamping out of heresy in this is
[00:53:23] Emily Quann: The start of it,
[00:53:24] Jeremy Spray: Where it began, right?
[00:53:26] Don Early: Yeah. And, and why it began. The other thing that I was kind of hoping to get, that we didn't get was, um, how she, she starts the book with her story about losing her husband, which started her up on this sort of path of,
[00:53:41] Emily Quann: Oh that's right.
[00:53:43] Don Early: And I thought she might bring it back on a personal level. And I would, was kind of interested to hear what, where, you know, where she came out on. After after this journey. But we didn't really get that either. So
[00:53:59] Jeremy Spray: You know what I [00:54:00] felt like it wrapped up quickly. It, it was, it was a good conclusion in, in the way that it all came together, but it really, it very much had this, uh, you know, the same kind of message that you were talking about, Don, when we started the podcast of: by understanding how other people got to where their thought process is and how they interpret what the Devil is, it could give us more of a way to connect with them and to show that we're not The Other, show that we're not the Devil, right. That's that was one of those that really kind of like, and that's where the Devil came from. It's it's about our fear and our creation of Others and how we try to design it and determine what that is. And hers wrapped up in the same manner in a very, very quick kind of like bow that put it together.
[00:54:47] And it, it would've been really interesting to see, I don't know, maybe a bit of a, of a seated progression to, I guess for me, the, the devil aspect of it, but it [00:55:00] really was about Satan. It was about the adversary and, and where the Satan comes from. And so I thought it would, it was well done, but it could have been a little bit longer just, just tying that thread through a little bit more of really recognizing the, the, the entire process of the adversary of the Satan is just us figuring out each other. It's, it's it's just who we are and, and trying to be okay with what that is.
[00:55:25] And the more that we are accepting rather than controlling and separating, the less of a Devil aspect or Satan aspect there would be.
[00:55:35] Don Early: Yeah.
[00:55:37] Emily Quann: I'd be curious to, to see if, because this book was written in 1995. And so it's almost 30 years old.
[00:55:45] Don Early: Mm-hmm
[00:55:46] Emily Quann: I'd be curious to see if her takes on any of this have changed since, since when she wrote the book. Just given like political and, and social [00:56:00] things that have happened, just lots more upheaval and stuff. If that has had any effect on how she views this.
[00:56:11] Don Early: If I were to wager or if I were to guess, um, I would guess that it would be really enforced, like it would be reinforced, I should say. Because the substance of the material in this book,
[00:56:26] Emily Quann: A lot of it's historical fact and that doesn't change.
[00:56:30] Don Early: This, this book wraps up, very, very well. The conclusion is very well written, um, in that it summarizes the entire book very eloquently and, and does tie it all together. It doesn't provide any conclusive opinions or, and maybe that's not what it's meant to do, but, um, but I was just kind of interested to hear more of like, okay, now that I presented all this [00:57:00] information and here are my thoughts on that. But, you know, with scholarship, that might be just, well, those were my thoughts.
[00:57:11] Emily Quann: Maybe have to take her Harvard class to get her thoughts.
[00:57:15] Jeremy Spray: might, might, be.
[00:57:17] Don Early: Yeah. Right.
[00:57:18] Well, we have discovered The Origin of Satan and How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics, according to Elaine Pagels anyway. She does have another book that, you know, my question about sex might be the topic of this other book, which is, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent book that is about, sexuality.
[00:57:42] I, I think that would probably be an interesting deep dive for my personal, you guys don't have to read that but, but, uh, but yeah, we have, we have wrapped this up and we are, we are done with this book. We are moving on to, to [00:58:00] other things.
[00:58:00] Jeremy Spray: Yay. What do you, uh, what do you have in mind for the next things? Don? You said you, you had some really good ideas coming up.
[00:58:09] Don Early: yeah, so The Satanic Panic is coming up again. Stranger Things Season Four.
[00:58:17] Emily Quann: Oh let that be our homework, please!
[00:58:19] Don Early: We've been doing a lot of heavy historical research, heavy stuff. I think it's time to lighten it up. So maybe get your ideas, your opinions. Um, but I've been watching a documentary called Sons of Sam on, um, Netflix
[00:58:38] Emily Quann: Ooh, saw it.
[00:58:38] Don Early: So I, I haven't gotten to the end of it yet, but, um,
[00:58:41] Emily Quann: oh it's really good.
[00:58:42] Don Early: There's some, uh, there's some very interesting Satanic Panic stuff going on in there. Stranger Things, like I said, Satanic Panics going on, in season four. We're seeing some of that. One of the former writers from Wizards of the Coast, [00:59:00] Ed Stark. He's a good friend of ours. You know, um, he volunteered, he's got a Satanic Panic story that he'd love to tell, from when he was growing up.
[00:59:10] And so I'd love to have him on the show and
[00:59:12] Emily Quann: Oh, for sure.
[00:59:14] Don Early: And so then I want to really kind of get into where that comes from and how that is carried forward today in modern conspiracy theories and that sort of thing like Q'Anon. So there is a old antisemitic conspiracy theory called Blood Libel, which I'm not gonna spoil it for you. You'll get, you'll see. Um, but it's kind of where all this comes from and the satanic panic, a lot of the things that we hear... same story.
[00:59:49] Emily Quann: That was mentioned in this book, right. Briefly.
[00:59:52] Don Early: Was it?
[00:59:54] Emily Quann: maybe not.
[00:59:55] Jeremy Spray: I don't, yeah, I don't, I'm not familiar with that.
[00:59:58] Emily Quann: Okay. I've heard the term recently. And I [01:00:00] thought it was while I was reading, because I had never heard it before. And I was like, what? So, but maybe, maybe it was from somewhere else, which that's coincidental. All right. Never mind
[01:00:14] Don Early: Other ideas I thought might be fun to explore... You wanted to watch documentaries,
[01:00:22] Emily Quann: I love documentaries. I'm such a nerd.
[01:00:25] Don Early: Let's go on a quest to find Satan related or the Devil related documentary kind of stuff or something that is interesting that we wanna, you know, talk about on the show.
[01:00:39] Emily Quann: Okay.
[01:00:40] Don Early: I'd like to get, Pontifacts people on the show. Do an interview with, uh, you know, the popes. They certainly had a lot to do with spreading the devil I was also thinking about really great, uh, portrayals of the Devil in [01:01:00] films and maybe see if we can deep dive and find like what the development process was like.
[01:01:08] Emily Quann: I do need to rewatch The Devil's Advocate now, cuz that was amazing. It blew my mind when I watched.
[01:01:16] Don Early: Yeah, for sure.
[01:01:17] All right. Thanks everybody. We'll uh, we'll catch you next time.
[01:01:21] Emily Quann: This was The Devil You Don't Know. If you are enjoying this podcast, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Pod Chaser. It helps the show so much. Remember you can follow us on social media at facebook.com/thedevilpodcast. Twitter @thedevilpodcast, Instagram, thedevilpodcast, YouTube, The Devil You Don't Know. Patreon. patreon.com/thedevilpodcast.. And please remember to subscribe. You can get us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, Buzz Sprout, or [01:02:00] wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
[01:02:02] We'll talk at you later.