The Devil You Don't Know

The End... of Season 2

March 23, 2023 Don Early Season 2 Episode 10
The End... of Season 2
The Devil You Don't Know
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Don encounters his own Devil he didn't know, while Jeremy and Emily share their experiences of "The Road So Far." As Season 2 comes to an end, Don lines out what to expect for Season 3!

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The End of S2

[00:00:00] Don Early: This is the Devil You Don't Know podcast. And on today's show, we are wrapping up season two and setting up what we'll be doing in season three. I had my very own encounter with a devil I didn't know. So stay tuned for that along with Emily and Jeremy's own experiences. It's time for the show. Hit it. 

[00:00:24] This is the Devil You Don't Know podcast because the devil you don't know is the devil someone else does. I usually say that at the end, but you know, it's been a while and we wanted to remind everybody what we've learned. Uh, I'm your host, Don and uh, with me as always is Emily and Jeremy. And so it's been a while and there's a few reasons for it besides life, but frankly I have been struggling, uh, with the topic.

[00:01:21] And the reason is because, gosh, we've covered a lot and we've covered a lot. We've covered so much. And when I start thinking about new topics like. I don't know, uh, the hell in music or devil in music. Uh, devil in movies, those are kind of fun and things we could do. Um, witchcraft, uh, exorcisms. Um, I've got a book on my table here.

[00:01:54] Jesus the Exorcist, A contribution to the study of the Historical Jesus. You thought Pagels was dry? 

[00:02:03] Emily Quann: Oh Lord. 

[00:02:04] Don Early: Oh man. Uh, I will save you from this

[00:02:07] Emily Quann: Thank you. I, I will, I will pay you money to save myself from that.

[00:02:11] Don Early: Oh, will you?

[00:02:13] Emily Quann: I mean, wait a minute. You already said nevermind.

[00:02:18] Don Early: Um, so, uh, I might rethink that. Um, no, but it's, I found myself sort of rehashing things that we've already covered. Then I just kind of downward spiraled through the whole thing. I was like, gosh, have we kind of reached the end of what I wanted to accomplish with this podcast? And, and, and in some ways, yeah, we have, we, we did it.

The Road So Far

[00:02:44] Don Early: We, we sort of discovered the devil we didn't know. And I want to talk a lot about what we did discover tonight. This is gonna be kind of a, a, uh, the road so far, so to speak. If you watch Supernatural, it's like, here's that little catch-up kind of thing. But I was talking with, uh, Bri over at Pontifacts. She's a, um, podcaster over there. And, um, I've kind of picked her brain a couple of times about some ideas. And, uh, I've joined a historical podcast Discord server, which is pretty fun. Um, And so talking with some, some folks over, uh, over there and get some ideas. And one thing that she brought up that I thought was pretty dead on, which was that I really, really enjoyed interviewing people and I've kind of, we haven't done that in a while.

[00:03:45] Jeremy Spray: Yeah, that was kind of the way we started.

[00:03:48] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we started right outta the gate after kind of doing our, uh, two-parter episode on Evil, we

[00:03:57] Emily Quann: What is it? Definition.

[00:03:59] Don Early: mm-hmm. . Yeah. So then we jumped right into three interviews right after that. And then kind of did a little bit of a check in with what do we see evil as and that sort of thing. And then we dove into the history of evil, uh, and the history of the devil through the ancient origins of the devil.

[00:04:24] And then back into a couple of more interviews. And we really haven't done one since. So I, that's what I'm planning on doing. So this episode today is what I'm gonna call the end of season two.

[00:04:42] Emily Quann: Okay.

[00:04:42] Don Early: This is the end, of Season 2.

[00:04:45] Emily Quann: Of season two,

[00:04:48] Don Early: And so season two started with the Origins of Satan, with Elaine Pagels and we have that six-part episodes, um, on the origin of Satan, which I think was some excellent podcasting. I think we did great work with that and we covered a lot and we learned a lot. And then we jumped into the Blood Libel, Satanic Panic and QAnon, and that was a big episode and, and did a lot. And then we had a really fun episode with the Dispatchist Podcast where Jeremy and I went over there and they did the Satan's brackets thing. And

[00:05:28] yeah, so that was super fun. And then we did Santa Satan, so all the sort of origins of, and the mythology behind, uh, you know, Santa's evil helper, um, or, or punishing helper or whatever. So kind of went through a lot of all of that and, um, but again, like haven't done much interviews. And so I think what.

More interviews

[00:05:54] Don Early: What needs to happen now is, uh, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reach out and, uh, so I've got some folks lined up. I'm very excited to talk with some, some. So, I, I think what it has, what it comes down to is that there's been a lot of learning internally, right? And a lot of reading and researching. And it, the filter's been through us and me and, and whatnot and kind of doing that work.

[00:06:27] But the interviews do such a refreshing, service to the podcast in when you bring outside opinions and life experiences and, you know, I can just sort of sit back and ask questions and learn things. I had no idea it existed.

[00:06:48] Emily Quann: And as a listener, um, I can honestly say that I, every single interview that you've done with people has just been absolutely eye-opening. They, they are by far my favorite because how often do you get such, uh, an intimate perspective from another person on, on deeply held beliefs like that? I, I, I just love them and I'm really excited you're taking it this way.

[00:07:15] Don Early: Yeah. So I think that's what, that's the direction I want to go. I want to hear from other people. And so season three, that's what we're gonna be about. We're gonna be, we're gonna kind of shift gears and we're gonna do, collaboration. You know, I was just at, in fact, on the Black Mass Appeal podcast, uh, they had me on and we covered, uh, I don't remember the name of it.

[00:07:41] I'll put a link in the episode description, but it was, uh, around essentially the idea of hell in your own backyard or, or hell or access to hell, um, like real locations on earth that were perceived to be, you know, uh, hell on earth or access to hell

[00:08:03] Emily Quann: Well that's fascinating.

[00:08:05] Don Early: Was a really good episode and it really has this very interesting theme of hell is always just around the corner.

[00:08:16] Like it's, you're not careful. It's right there. It's, it's in your backyard, it's around the corner, it's, it's in, there's a gateway in the forest at the end of your street kind of thing, you know? So,

[00:08:30] Emily Quann: a bit terrifying.

[00:08:32] Don Early: So I loved that and that was amazing. So, uh, we can check that out. But I thought I would kind of take you through my 2023 so far, and some of the things that I've been kind of mulling over and thinking about and in reflection on.

[00:08:51] And then I want to, I want to get your thoughts. So I want you to reflect on these episodes that we've done so far that you can recall and just think about where you started when we started this podcast and when it comes to the devil and that topic. Now, where are you at now and what has this journey done for you?

[00:09:20] Um, cause that's, you know, I, I haven't really asked you that

[00:09:24] Jeremy Spray: It's true. I remember you. We started off that way with why are you here and what do you wanna get out of it? So yeah, it'll be kind of fun to give a little bit of a return note, but now you gotta make me think about it, Don. So I gotta like hold, see if I have any notes written down somewhere. 

[00:09:42] Don Early: Yeah, Do that. You, you, you go ahead. Oh, in the meantime, I shall, uh, entertain you, uh, or put you to sleep with, uh, what I w have been kind of thinking about and, and going through this year. 

Thanking the Patreon Supporters

[00:09:55] Don Early: You know what, before we do that, I want to take a moment right now and I want to thank our Patreon supporters because they have been with us even in this lull time.

[00:10:13] You know, they're still contributing and believing in us,

[00:10:17] Emily Quann: They're amazing.

[00:10:18] Don Early: Want to thank you for that. Um, and you know, we're not, I'm not doing this for the money, we're not doing this for the money, but it helps because, you know, the editing software and the hosting fees and all that stuff, it, it's all cost money.

[00:10:33] It's all out of pocket. But, um, so that's what that goes towards. It helps the, the show and, and research materials. But, um, but I just wanna call out, uh, a huge thank you, uh, in no particular order. Uh, Jason Kittrich, uh, Seven Realms production, um, Royce J I'm just gonna go by your Patreon name. So, um, Jacob Blackmon uh, huge.

[00:11:00] Thank you so much. Your, uh, your art is amazing as well, Merk! Of course. My God. Merk, you've. been a bedrock of this thing. And there, I, I thank you so much for all you have contributed, uh, to this podcast, uh, through its many iterations and, uh, I, I hope you've gotten out what you've, uh, you've given forth to us.

[00:11:28] It's, it's certainly helped keep the lights on. So thank you. Merk. Chrysilla Hugo Hernandez, jhamalak, my cousin, George Peterson. Fred Fk, Tecrogue, K V H, Jenna McMichael, of course. Gordon Duke. Sarah, Jeremy Richie, Nathan Rockwood, our good friend Nathan. And, uh, as always the ever loyal and ever amazing, Rob McClennan.

[00:11:58] Thank you all for again, just your continued contributions. Uh, I mean, and folks, I'm not talking about huge. You know, numbers here, it's like, uh, two bucks a month or whatever. I don't know, $5 a

[00:12:12] Jeremy Spray: But that 

[00:12:13] Don Early: whatever you want to do. 

[00:12:14] Jeremy Spray: up like every dollar counts and helps 

[00:12:16] Don Early: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Um, and by the way, I do turn around and support other podcasters too.

[00:12:24] Uh, and so some of that money helps me do that as well. Um, of course I would do that anyway, but, um, but, uh, but yeah, so thank you. I know it's, um, you know, hopefully it can be a set and forget it if you're enjoying the show. I know it was a little questionable whether we were coming back or not, and, uh, I didn't do a great job of letting you know that it wasn't going away.

[00:12:49] And I'll tell you about that in a moment because I wasn't sure myself. Um, Anyway, once again, Patreon supporters, thank you so much. If you, uh, Do. If you're listening and you are, have enjoyed the show and now you know that we do have more coming and you want to support us, you can go to and we would love to see you there.

[00:13:16] Um, you can join our, join our Discord server and have lots of fun.

[00:13:21] Emily Quann: Absolutely.

Don's 2023 so far

[00:13:22] Don Early: Um, okay, so gosh, it started out with, you know, we had a great January and then I got hella sick. Not, I didn't, I didn't get the covid, but something else. And it, it took me down hard. Um, and that took me out of my physical activities of trying to, you know, get back into fitness again and just.

[00:13:56] Defeating all my goals. And not that I'm a big goal person anyway, but, um, you know, it, it just, it just like ground that momentum to a screeching halt. 

[00:14:10] And, and yeah, it's, as, as everybody knows, trying to create momentum from a dead stop is so

[00:14:19] Emily Quann: Oh, it's miserable. Miserable.

[00:14:21] Don Early: and no matter what it is, um, you know, and, and again, I was thinking in terms of like, have I, have I accomplished what I set out to, with this podcast?

[00:14:38] Did I learn what I wanted to learn? And, you know, so we did go through and we, we. We learned a ton about the history of the devil we, that I certainly had no idea about. And my, I think just through this journey I've learned a lot and put a lot in context. And I feel like everything that we built up to, until we got to the Origin of Satan, the Elaine Pagels novel or novel, the, the book, not a novel.

[00:15:10] Um, and then we read that book that just for me put so much context on my, on all the biblical studies and all of the, uh, you know, awareness or knowledge that I've had around, the Bible and whatnot, but particularly the gospels and gaining that perspective to understand the context of each gospel writer and.

[00:15:44] Why they were writing, what they were writing and how they were writing it. Knowing the conflicts that they had to overcome and who they were writing to, and, and then dropping that figure of the devil, right? And then the center and just like, Hey, by the way, it's been there the whole time. It's just that church people don't tend to focus on it, but it's been there and it's been there the whole time.

[00:16:16] And it is absolutely paramount to interpreting the whole piece of work of what that writer is doing. And I never had that. I never, that never clicked for me until we went through that. And that just sort. Expounded upon everything that had come before and, you know, brought in like, it was so cool to like, Hey, we, we talked about, we learned about Zoroastrianism and we learned about the diaspora and, you know, these different things that happened and occurred.

[00:16:54] Now we have a lot more context with these stories. And I, I don't know if it's safe to say that it ruined me on it, um, because whenever now, uh, a gospel or, uh, you know, somebody brings up something from church or whatnot, I always, now I'm like, oh, well, which gospel was it? Because now I'm interested in, oh, who are we talking about now?

[00:17:23] Emily Quann: Oh, look at you all jaded

[00:17:25] Don Early: Because it's not, it's, it's not me trying to debunk, it's me trying to go, well,

[00:17:32] Jeremy Spray: Well

[00:17:33] Don Early: probably isn't, not really, it probably doesn't mean it that way , you know? Um, it's not important for me to correct people. They can believe what they want, but, um, but it, it's just, it's one of those things like, oh, oh, Luke, oh, that guy. Okay, we're gonna talk about Luke now. Okay. He's a good pretty writer, but come on, the Jews. Okay. So, uh, um, and so it's kind of like, you know, it's, so I kind of went through that thought barrel and then I, you know, I started kind of looking at, I've got books on witchcraft and sexuality and how. Uh, the, you know, the church had kind of done a lot of projection and, um, I've got, oh gosh, what was the other one? oh, I mean, I mean, there's other stuff around like the, the devil in the, in the Renaissance and Middle Ages and up through the modern area and stuff where you never really totally covered those. But it began to sound like variations on the same theme that we've already covered, you know, the, the whole, the witch trials and the, you know, it's all just this projection of the other onto people and creating these conspiracies to justify their hatred or fear, you know?

Ted Lasso

[00:19:05] Don Early: Um, and it just started to kind of sound like noise in my head again. You know, it's funny, I was just watching, I'm rewatching for the third time Ted Lasso 

[00:19:19] and 

[00:19:20] Emily Quann: still need to watch

[00:19:21] Don Early: Oh yeah,

[00:19:23] third, you do

[00:19:24] Emily Quann: Everybody tells me about

[00:19:26] Jeremy Spray: It is 

[00:19:26] Don Early: third. 

[00:19:27] Jeremy Spray: good.

[00:19:28] Don Early: I mean, to the point that this is third goal around, and I'm still every single episode riveted. I don't do that shows I cannot rewatch most of the time because I just remembered it.

[00:19:44] I just got it. But for some reason with this show, I keep catching more stuff, more nuance, more depth. It's just so well done. Well, the thing that I was just about to say is that, you know, he talks about when you say a word too many times it becomes noise. There's a phenomenon about that. They talk about it.

[00:20:04] It's like for them, at the time it was plan, plan, plan. Oh, I said plan too many times now. I dunno what it means. Plan, how can I say? Plan. Plan. How do you pronounce it? Plan, plan. , you know?

[00:20:17] Emily Quann: Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:20:18] Don Early: And,

[00:20:19] Emily Quann: I'm familiar with that.

[00:20:22] Don Early: and that's kind of conceptually what

[00:20:27] Emily Quann: like it loses its meaning after a while. It's just the same thing and yeah, you're right. It just becomes noise. It's background noise and

The Dark Spell - The Devil Within

[00:20:37] Don Early: yeah. So I've been, then I kind of, I went through kind of a, a dark spell. Not necessary. Maybe it was depression, but 

[00:20:48] it was, it was more irritability and just angry and cranky. And to the point that it almost didn't feel like me. It just felt like the worst or the more rotten version of me. Right.

[00:21:08] Um, and I'm just like, I don't know why I think this and why does it take energy to not think this and, and just this approach and I don't just really grumbling and I was finally able to back out of that. I got to thinking about the devil within and the a, a concept, you know, we've talked a a little bit about here and there about these ideas of, you know, the demon or the devil in your own person.

[00:21:42] Um, uh, Part of your persona, the little whispering in your ear of, of doing things. But in this case, it was less about whispering, you know, cuz I, through my mental health journey, I've been able to quiet that inner voice. Sometimes it comes back, but, but I've kind of got a system of how to sort of shut up. I don't need to listen to you right now. And that's been working okay. But this wasn't, it was just, this was just me and I was just cranky and, um, not the best version of me. And, um, when I finally was able to sort of crawl out of it or, or back out of it almost, it just felt like a different, it still, it still felt like me, but it felt, uh, but I, I could see, oh, I could see how some worldviews would think that that would be like a demonic possession

[00:22:45] Jeremy Spray: Hmm.

[00:22:45] Emily Quann: Hmm. 

[00:22:46] Don Early: or, or, um, an influence of some kind or, you know, that sort of thing.

[00:22:52] Um, and I began to unpack that a little bit in thinking about, well, does that fit the devil you don't know? Well, I'll tell you, I didn't know that that devil was in there and I didn't know what it wanted and I didn't know what it was so pissed about , you know? Um, and it's a part of everybody, but it sometimes it, it got to me thinking that sometimes the devil you don't know is the devil inside you.

[00:23:27] And I, I was thinking, well, how can you not know that? How can you not know that devil? I mean, we've, we've seen those classic times of the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other, and you've got this kind of back and forth. But, but I do think sometimes it just catches you by surprise. And what challenged it for me was this notion of, you know, I, I have a, throughout, throughout all this, I've always had this hard time relating to or understanding why there would be a being entirely dedicated to ruining you, to speaking terrible things to you, to making you feel the worst and making it feel like it's coming from you as well, or, Hearing it from others as if you are being attacked by others.

[00:24:35] And there's that sort of vicious cycle. But then I experienced it, you know, and, and there is like, there is sometimes this, like, maybe it's part of the id or maybe it's, I don't know, some part of your personality that can just push you in to ruin for a bit if you know.

Emily's story and The Voice within

[00:25:01] Emily Quann: That, that happens to me. And, and I'll share, share something personal here. Um, regarding the voice inside. Um, I know you and Jeremy know, but for our listeners, uh, 11 years ago, uh, I had my first baby, and he's awesome and he's great now, but, uh, went through quite a bit of trauma and he was in the NICU for, oh my God, over a month and three brain surgeries by the time he was 25 days old. We were told when he was just a day old and, and being transported to the children's hospital, that after the neurologist looked at him, the neonatologist, uh, the neurosurgeon, they all just basically told us we're sorry. There's nothing we can do for him. But again, 11 years later, he's, he's here, he's talking, he's walking.

[00:26:09] It's great. Um, but anyway, he had a brain hemorrhage and developed, uh, Hydrocephalus as a result of that, as well as cerebral palsy. And this is where the voice comes in. I am tortured by the voice and it comes outta nowhere,

[00:26:35] and it tells me that it's my fault. I carried this beautiful little baby . I was responsible.

[00:26:46] And, uh, something I did or didn't do, uh, is, is, is what has caused, uh, all of these hardships through his life and being left behind on the playground or, or kids running faster than him or, or all of these little things that, that I noticed that he probably just brushes off. But, uh, I was a sensitive little kid.

[00:27:11] I was always last in the races and stuff, you know, you know things. I don't know. 

[00:27:17] Things are way more difficult for him than other little kids out there.

[00:27:23] And, um, the voice, it's just incessant sometimes. Sometimes it'll be gone for months, but when it comes back, it, it brings me so down that there's no sleep, there's tears, there's, it's, it's, it interrupts

[00:27:47] Don Early: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:49] Emily Quann: Um, it's just really difficult. And, and so I, I, I understand what you mean when, when you're talking about what is this thing in me. Everybody has told me, doctors have told me there's nothing you could do. Sometimes things just happen. You know, he had a brain bleed.

[00:28:09] Don Early: Sure.

[00:28:09] Emily Quann: days probably before you gave birth to him, you know, based on what the blood looks like on all these MRIs and cat scans and stuff.

[00:28:17] But it's still there. It is still there. Um, and you know what, it's, it's gonna always be there because no matter what people tell me it's not going away. And so I I understand what you mean. It, that voice can, it, it starts off as a little voice and it seems to just get louder and louder and louder until it's like this cacophony,

[00:28:42] Don Early: And it just sneaks in, in

[00:28:44] Emily Quann: Yeah. It, it's, it's like a knife. It, it's in you and then just keeps twisting it and twisting it and twisting it, 

[00:28:52] you know? So, yeah. Why is that there? Let's get rid of it, Don. I don't want it anymore.

[00:28:58] Don Early: Well, that's what the Christians tried to do, you know, they tried to, they tried to

[00:29:05] Emily Quann: I'm one. 

[00:29:06] Don Early: it.

[00:29:07] Emily Quann: maybe, I don't know, 

[00:29:08] Don Early: yeah, whatever. But I wanted to, let's go back to the first two episode. The concept evil though, right? This is the thing that sort of struck out to me, and I had to actually look this up, but we talked about depth psychology.

Reviewing Depth Psychology - Reintegration

[00:29:26] Don Early: Which suggests that evil happens because it's how the human mind develops and it lends itself to personify these things. And so, um, they describe a development, uh, a series of development. If you recall, uh, in the beginning, a person has a chaotic and undifferentiated view of themself, uh, you know, interview any three year old about anything, and it's just all over the place. But as they develop this sense of good and evil starts to split and separate and very differentiated from each other, and they have a tendency to then want to repress or just push away the evil side, um, which Carl Jung talks about causing this growth of a shadow in their unconsciousness, right? And so if repression mechanisms are too strong, the shadow may come, may become monstrous and burst out.

[00:30:35] So I don't know how outdated of a concept that that is. I'm not sure about what cognitive or behavioral therapy, uh, you know, says about that today, but that sounds exactly like what you and I were just describing to me. Um, but the third stage, so, and then, you know, you take this theologically. Started out, you want to maybe think about Old Testament God was both, you know, both punishing and loving and you know,

[00:31:19] Jeremy Spray: Wrathful and 

[00:31:20] Don Early: Yeah.

[00:31:22] Destroying lots of babies. Um, lots of firstborns. Um,

[00:31:30] Jeremy Spray: Yep.

[00:31:30] Don Early: you know, you pissed me off. Your entire fucking town is toast. Uh, you know, but be with my chosen people, you know? Anyway, so we have that. But then as the religion and the, and the different faiths sort of grew and evolved, these concepts, uh, sort of separated in this idea almost of a dualistic.

[00:31:55] There's God is the good, good God, and only the devil is the bad thing is the bad, and the devil is responsible for all of the bad shit. And so the devil is the thing that causes all of this, or is in you or is tempting, you know, it's trying to get at you and all that stuff. So the answer to that is to destroy the devil and keep the good God 

[00:32:21] Jeremy Spray: Bring balance to the

[00:32:22] Don Early: yeah, so the, that is not balance, 

[00:32:27] that's imbalance. If it was together once and then separated, the answer is to bring them together again. Um, and so the third stage that Jung describes as healthy people, uh, good and evil are recognized and reintegrated on a conscious level. So that's the issue with, uh, separation of the evil and the good is that the evil is often repressed and shoved under into the unconscious. Um, so on a conscious level, when we go, Hey, I'm gonna actually choose to recognize this. Call it out, maybe name it, maybe label it or whatever it is, and re accept it as part of me and reintegrate into myself. Um, that's kind of, I think what Jung talks about and sort of that sort of reintegration kind of thing. And that's been really sticking with me lately is that concept. It feels kind of mature. It feels wiser in some ways. Um, I went, I was in Las Vegas. A few weeks, or last week or two weeks ago or something like that, um, for work. And so I was there nonstop and ugh, uh, I thought that with Covid that they would have stepped up their air filters and maybe I wouldn't smell the cigarette smoke so much.

[00:34:06] And I was in the Wynn too, by the way. And that place is pretty ritzy, but nope, you walk through that casino and I even had a mask on and I could still smell the smoke. It was just,

[00:34:17] Jeremy Spray: Oh.

[00:34:18] Emily Quann: oh, geez.

Awakening - in Vegas

[00:34:18] Don Early: yeah. Um, it, it was pretty rough. But the last night I was there, I had to, I ended up staying an extra night cuz the flights out of there that evening when the conference ended was terrible and I would get there horribly.

[00:34:34] So I went ahead and I plunked down. I think it was, well it ended up being around $200 to go see this show right in the Wynn um, called Awakening. . Um, and it was awesome first off, but uh, it was, I think the ticket was like 160 bucks and then I just, like a movie theater, I got concessions, which ended up being 40 fricking dollars

[00:35:03] for concessions. Yeah, very much like a movie theater. Um, and you get to the seats and it was really interesting cuz the seats, the back of the seats were just like, up, like, you sit down and you're like, thinking you're gonna read Black back, but you know, you're like, you're right there and they have speakers right next to you.

[00:35:23] Um, and it's theater in the round. So, uh, it, it's just like this small but fairly sizable stadium. Not stadium, uh, theater, uh, with this round stage. And it was really cool. The stage, like the floor itself, um, changed and, uh, you know, revolved in different directions. It lit up, it would split and have different levels and um, that sort of thing.

[00:35:54] So it was really, really cool in that way. But the theme of it, the story that was very mythological and the, the show itself was very, uh, I would say more dance with a little bit of acrobatics involved, and then a lot more like stage magic and illusion, then Cirque de Soleil acrobatics kind of thing. Um, It's still like super high concept, very flashy, high production value.

[00:36:28] A lot of puppetry,

[00:36:30] like large puppetry as well, which was super cool. Um, and but the story of it was in the beginning, the universe birthed two individuals. Light, light, and Darkness. Darkness was a woman, light is this man, and they loved each other. And as long as they were in the love, they had complete harmony and it created a third being, magic.

[00:37:02] Um, magic you might think of as, uh, love or harmony or anything like that. But, um, but as you know, as long as they together, well, Light started to hoard Magic, to spend more time with Magic. And spend less time with Darkness. And Darkness got jealous and angry and hurt. And so she struck Light and shattered him into three pieces.

[00:37:34] And he, uh, his three pieces were scattered to three kingdoms, um, of, of the universe. And so Darkness captures Magic and imprisons Magic, uh, as her own. Kind of thing. And so the story is, uh, these three thieves, it was almost very like Dungeons and Dragons and the, the main character, uh, Io. Looks, her gossiping and hair and makeup is exactly like out of, um, the Fifth Element, you know, multipass girl.

[00:38:14] So it looks, she looks just like that. Yeah. Clearly on purpose. I'm not entirely certain what the concept behind that was, but it, it was really cool. And so we have these three thieves and that their quest, um, that, well, they, they're, they go, they drop in where they, they enter the story is, uh, Darkness is having a ball like she always does every night or something.

[00:38:38] And so the thieves have planned this heist and they're going in and there's this beautiful dance number of them going through and stealing all the watches and the jewelry and, and um, you know, uh, thieving everybody at this ball. And in the process they end up stealing Magic and they didn't know what they had.

[00:39:00] Um, And so then it becomes revealed that they have Magic and that there's this quest that if they go and find the three pieces of Light and put them back together, um, well, they, they have a choice of, of like doing that or releasing Magic. Um, and, you know, keeping Magic or releasing Magic, I don't know.

[00:39:26] Anyway, ultimately the whole idea was a reconstitution of Light and bringing that reconciliation back together between Light and Darkness and, and bringing that intentionality of that 

[00:39:46] Jeremy Spray: Of the, the symbiosis relationship or the balance.

[00:39:49] Don Early: Yeah, it was just really beautiful and just, Spoke to me a lot of on that idea of they were once together and then it was split apart, and then the answer to that light and darkness was a conscious, intentional reintegration of, of those forces.

[00:40:11] Um, so that's been kind of sticking with me.

[00:40:15] Jeremy Spray: Sounds like, sounds like that had a, a big impact on you.

[00:40:18] Don Early: Yeah,

[00:40:19] Jeremy Spray: That's great. 

[00:40:20] Don Early: so 

[00:40:21] Jeremy Spray: that, do you think that that was one of the parts that helped pulled you out of your emotional status when you said you were backing out of it? Did that happen before, uh, you went and saw the show, or did it happen after?

[00:40:31] Don Early: it was before, thankfully, I enjoyed the show a lot more once I, you know, was able to, yeah. And when I say the show, I mean the conference that I was there for as well, and of course the, the stage show that I went to there. But, um, but no, I was thankfully able to, to kinda capture there, but I've, I had a couple of low moments.

[00:40:52] Personally and professionally that just sort of stung and as repercussions of just where I was at and it wasn't my best time or, or that sort of thing. But, you know, I'm accept it, and moving on and, you know, cur doing better and all that. So, so then it, it occurred to me, like you say, as I said in the beginning, um, that in talking with Bri, the, maybe the answer is that, you know, get out of myself and, and let's go hear others.

[00:41:30] Let's go talk to other people and get their perspectives and, and which really fits nicely with the themes that I had kind of put out, um, in the beginning. So season one was, where did this come from? Season two was, okay, but what are the consequences of belief?

[00:41:55] Jeremy Spray: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:57] Don Early: And we really explored a lot of that. And now I think it's time to look for those reintegration or what is out there listening to others.

Creating Empathy

[00:42:11] Don Early: Cuz ultimately at the end of the day, as I started sort of pitching this to other people, like why are we doing the Devil You Don't Know podcast? What is the ultimate goal? And it has come down for me that, um, my aim is to create more empathy in the world. And I think that by

[00:42:34] Emily Quann: Oh, I can definitely get behind.

[00:42:37] Don Early: yeah, so I, I feel like by understanding, trying to understand concepts of.

[00:42:44] The most evil or the evil one, what people think is the devil, or what is the devil? What is the reality of the, of these things? If we can understand that and understand where fear comes from or what they are afraid of, or what we're afraid of, what our own, um, devils are, as you know, getting, getting to know those devils we don't know might then open us up to be able to have more empathy and maybe, uh, approach differences from a deeper perspective.

[00:43:24] Jeremy Spray: Sounds.

[00:43:26] Emily Quann: Yeah. I love that

[00:43:27] Don Early: So that's my last three months. um, I just talked about, you know, that first. Episode a couple episodes of Evil and knew, you know, where we defined evil. And then we got to talk with, you know, LDS and Me and My Muslim Friend and, and several others. So, ta talk to me about your journey through all of this. I just kind of spouted through a lot of mine, but what do you think, um, remind us where you started and what, what you, where you were going into this, and then what are the highlights?

[00:44:13] What, what are some of the things that stand out to you for you?

Emily's Journey

[00:44:16] Emily Quann: Well, it's honestly hard to remember where I started because this has been such a, a journey of like understanding and knowledge and. History lessons and, um, social lessons and just getting to know so much more than I ever even knew existed about the topic. Um, so I don't really remember where I started.

[00:44:47] Um, I guess as somebody who grew up Christian, um, and honestly doesn't even know where they are anymore at this point, I still don't know where I am at this point. , after, I think part of the journey I was hoping to, to have a better answer, but a lot of it still, it's not very clear to me about my own personal beliefs.

[00:45:10] One thing I will say is I'm kind of envious of people who aren't filled with doubt. When, when I see people or, um, and they just. They have such deep faith and, and what is out there. There's this benevolent God and, and there's this incredible heaven that we, we go to when we die and we see our loved ones again.

[00:45:43] And like, they, they just, they have this knowledge. It goes beyond faith. They just know. And I'm so completely envious of that.

[00:45:53] Because, because that, I don't know if I ever actually had that. I mean, I was told I needed to believe that, and I was like, oh, okay. People are telling me that this is out there.

[00:46:04] That's cool. Um, I'll take your word for it. now, like there's much more doubt and questioning and, and I'm just, I'm so, oh, I don't know.

[00:46:18] To a fault. I'm a realist. Uh, you know, uh, and, and so the thought of just knowing that this, this magical place th this heaven and this benevolent God who just loves us and, and takes care of all of us, is just such a beautiful, wonderful story. And I want it to be true.

[00:46:41] Don Early: I know.

[00:46:42] Emily Quann: I really, really, really do. Because it's, it just gives hope.

[00:46:48] And so it's easy to wanna believe that and be, and be filled with hope that it's out there and that it exists. And, and part of me has hope. Oh, I want them to be right. I want that to be real. Um, again, the realist in me is just like, evidence, evidence, , where is it? And it's, and it's hard for me to, to see things or believe in things that, that I don't see.

[00:47:15] It's not necessarily impossible, obviously, but, uh, yeah, I just, I wanna keep learning and I, and I wanna keep hearing from other people and, uh, oftentimes their excitement and their, and their hope and passion for, for what's out there and that there is this fantastic being who's looking out for us and who wants the best for us and who loves us unconditionally.

[00:47:44] Hearing them talk about it with such joy, um, and excitement and enthusiasm, uh, gives me hope. And then I hear some of them, um, talk shit about friends of mine, or not directly, but talk shit about people, um, that they don't understand. And then I'm just like, I want absolutely nothing to do with this. I, I want, I just need to separate myself from all of this.

[00:48:12] So it's just a whole whirlwind of things for me.

[00:48:16] Don Early: I'd like to interject just to respond a little bit, uh, because um, I clearly remember. Feeling like missing that feeling of knowing and of, of a heaven. And that, I mean, I remember there being a time when that was very real for me, 

[00:48:39] uh, of heaven and there being a God and this whole thing of being, you know, and so I just, I wanted to echo that.

[00:48:48] I I miss that too. Um,

[00:48:53] Emily Quann: Right. It's ju it's, it's just such a, a neat thing to think about that being out there. 

[00:48:59] It. 

[00:49:01] Don Early: Now what? It's, what

[00:49:03] it's, I'm not saying that. So the other thing I want to echo for you is that after talking with, uh, several people at our annual, um, you know, retreat that you know, that we do together, You are not alone in where you are feeling and thinking in, in that space. Like,

[00:49:24] Emily Quann: Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. I, I don't for a minute think that I'm just some weird outlier or anything in this. 

[00:49:30] Don Early: it was to the point that, like, I noted it that like we're, a lot of us are going through this right now.

[00:49:39] Emily Quann: Yeah.

[00:49:39] Jeremy Spray: group. 

[00:49:40] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, it was just like an observation of like, huh, 

[00:49:47] Emily Quann: Oh, interesting. Cuz I, I didn't talk with anybody out there about this, but I mean, this, this has been going on within me for like the last couple decades when, you know, when I graduated high school and, and left home and, and I was out in the world discovering things for myself, questioning, uh, what I had been taught.

[00:50:05] I mean, that's what you do when you leave le when you leave home do, I mean, you are out there to, to learn, um, and figure out who you are and stuff. So, so this isn't anything new, but, um, certainly doing this podcast has, has definitely made me think more about these things and, and I realize that I still have absolutely no answers,

[00:50:30] Don Early: I think 

[00:50:30] Emily Quann: but it, it's right.

[00:50:32] And, and, but it's, it's great to learn. More about that and, and figure things out or, and if I don't figure things out and I have questions still at the very end, I, if I'm still questioning my faith, those people out there who tell me that's fine because he understands. Or she understands. I'm good

[00:50:54] Don Early: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy's Journey

[00:50:56] Jeremy Spray: I, I very much feel like I've been the, uh, the guy in the side of the bar with like no shirt onto the giant trench coat over watching the bar fight happen, watching the whole conversation. And he is just waiting, just waiting for it to slow down for a moment so he can step up and like, okay, here's my turn, because your. S Don starting with your sentiments and your, uh, past three months in just flowing right into where you are at right now, Emily. That is where I started on both counts. I came into this podcast knowing already that I am incredibly jaded. I grew up in a abusive level of evangelism in, in, in, in the Evangelical church in a hellfire and brimstone.

[00:51:53] You are never going to succeed sort of way, and this absolute fear of you gotta be God or you gotta be or you're outs. And the ongoing belief that since I was seven, I was so clear that unicorns could have possibly existed and might still exist and Jesus and God didn't. It was already one of those where I was surrounded by people who were waving hands in the air and were speaking in tongues and were fulfilled by going to church and doing praise and worship every Sunday.

[00:52:31] And I felt nothing but hollow and pain and emptiness and was so clear in my mind. In in the level of ignorance really is bliss.

[00:52:44] If you don't know or don't care to know and you just live the world you want it to be in, you can be happy, cuz that's clearly what's happening here. No one is living in their reality.

[00:52:57] They're living in what they want to be reality, and they're fine with that. And when I'm five and I'm six and I'm seven and I'm 12, and I'm 17 and I'm 21, and I look at not seeing a great deal of consequences that affected my world. Growing up Midwest as a cis white male and having a huge amount of privilege to start off right at the bat.

[00:53:21] I was already sheltered from a bajillion things that were happening out there. But when I got 25, 27, 28 and really started seeing these consequences of what these beliefs and these fears that people were acting in and doing things in the name of their imaginary God, in the same way you were talking about Emily, right?

[00:53:41] Like, like having, having two faces of the, this is who I want to be, this is who I wanna believe in the world and this is how I actually act. I have had just all sorts of thoughts of the accepting the evil inside and what that actually is, and the perception of who you're supposed to be or who your child is supposed to be or could have been versus the the people that they are, because that's always been who they are.

[00:54:11] And like all of these things that I have, I have 44 years of, of hindsight now, but truly in the past year and a half, the thing that I've gotten out of this podcast that I did not expect, um, I expected, honestly, I really did expect to come into this to be jaded. I expected to, uh, be able to be the guy that throws the zingers all the time.

[00:54:34] They're like, yeah, but this thing, and, and that screws them up and, right, like, and always have the, the cracks and the wide strokes because I just don't believe it. Didn't believe it. Don't believe people who do. But what instead came out of it was an entirely new sense of empathy and not pity that I would've expected of the, oh, these poor innocent souls who just literally aren't smart enough to know better, but more of a actual understanding for where they're coming from. And maybe not necessarily every time why they believe what they do, but the honest to God on recognition that they do believe it and they do base their lives off of the belief of the devil that's out there or the djinn or God or Satan and, and the holy people that are there and how that affects their lives and causes them to affect other lives in a positive manner, not always a destructive manner with it, which is what I grew up with. So being able to, to learn about the basis of evil. And even to go through Elaine Pagels' book and to go through that process that I was honestly expecting to weaponize, I was gonna take every one of those pieces of education and say, see, this is why the Bible is bullshit. And everything you think about Jesus is actually just a use of literary terms to change the news of the day.

[00:56:20] Like, like I was so ready for it. I was just like, yeah, give me the ammo. I will shoot the gun. And instead, by the end of it, I was, I was really going through the like, oh, people will still make it believe what they want it to be. That's, that's how a lot of Christians take the Bible right now. But recognizing that even when the gospels were put into the Bible by men and, and deciding how it wants to be done, it was still done then also for a purpose.

[00:56:52] And it was usually to convey a level of, not control, but of keeping peace or maintaining an explanation of how we get to there. And I just, I was really clear of the fact that I had been one-sided. I, I had been so angry that I had this filter the whole time. I always decided to find a way to make it wrong, find a way to make it bad, and when I didn't have the choice, when I'm in here listening to people coming from their space, not because I'm in an interview back and forth with them, not because I'm asking 'em questions or firing darts, but I'm participating in the interviews that you were in, that I'm just listening now. I didn't have a choice but to absorb, but to listen and not, I suppose I could have rejected it, right? I could have just said, well, that was bullshit, and, and, and not move on. But like the idea of being where I'm at now, I have such a different sense of how important other people's lives are and whether or not they are believing the same thing that I am, which is never gonna happen, or the same thing as a whole bunch of other people. The important part is that they have it.

[00:58:16] Don Early: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:16] Jeremy Spray: That is what's important they, that is there for them, that allows them to make sense of this fucked up world that we all live in there. One of the phrases that I continue to come back to over and over again, that was never profound to me. It still isn't profound, but it sits in the back of my mind, like this song.

[00:58:38] Is that life is pain. And anyone that sells you something, anyone that tells you different is just selling something. Right? Princess Bride, great quote, but like, it's a, it's like a toss away, really funny line quote. But I have this thing where I like, it sits there for a while of just like, life is hard.

[00:58:56] Don Early: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:56] Jeremy Spray: Living life is hard. The world is hard. And for creatures, like humans that have the ability to make sense of things or attempt to make sense of things by trying to find patterns in the world, it is so much harder because now we are trying to not just live it. We're trying to explain it and justify it and understand it, 

[00:59:18] and 

[00:59:19] why 

[00:59:19] Emily Quann: for it.

[00:59:21] Jeremy Spray: we're always looking for it.

[00:59:22] Emily Quann: yeah. 

[00:59:23] Jeremy Spray: constantly looking for it. Why? Why am I in this bad state? Why did this happen to this person? Why are all these people being fucktards to all these other people for no good reason? And it's ju it's a constant there. It's always in our head because there's a little bit of that that's there, that life is living.

[00:59:44] Life is incredible and it's wonderful and it's horrible. And it's awful and it's all of these things. And so the devil and evil and being inside or being outside is literally people tolerating their life and doing what they can, finding what they can to help them get to tomorrow, to help them get to that next day and understand why they're, they're where they're at.

[01:00:12] And I did not come into this podcast with that mindset. I didn't have that kind of level of, of understanding or of empathy or of recognition that they, so many people have this in their daily lives and their daily routines because that's what helps them go. That's what helps them get rejuvenated and grow.

[01:00:33] And so, That's the big thing that, uh, that I've got. That's, that's my giant hammer of realization to the right. It's, it's a little bit of growth, but it's, it's a lot of, uh, lot of change.

[01:00:51] Don Early:

[01:00:51] Emily Quann: Yeah, I'm Jeremy. I'd, I'd give you a standing ovation right now if it wouldn't screw up Don with the audio mixing, but that was amazing.

[01:00:59] Don Early: So Jeremy, uh, for one, thank you for that. And, and also thank you Emily, for sharing your story as

[01:01:08] Emily Quann: you too.

[01:01:12] Don Early: Way to make it about you

[01:01:15] Emily Quann: No, no. J Jared. That was, that was amazing. I was just like, I was just going. Yes.

[01:01:23] Yes, Yes, what he's saying,

[01:01:27] Don Early: Yeah. Um, that's, that's a side effect I wasn't expecting, but also as I said, as a, as we were going along, I was like, the show is about creating empathy. I. I, and I recognize, I did recognize that early on. I think it was in our first interview there with Adam and Rachel, uh, about the LDS faith. And I know I've talked to several people, many who have grew up, uh, you know, with LDS folks, uh, like I have, uh, in Idaho. And they're like, you know, who maybe have similar jaded backgrounds like I do towards that faith.

[01:02:11] Um, would, and through this whole process, I have certainly come out the other end on it and they're like, I have no idea that I would ever sit down and think. The LDS church kind of makes a lot of sense on this issue.

[01:02:30] Emily Quann: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:31] Don Early: you know, uh, to approach the devil as your own brother, and to what if it was a fam, I mean, just, you know, relationship dynamics and what we can learn from other people in other faiths, even in that regard.

[01:02:55] Um, and, and he, you know, and of course with, uh, Yasmine Bendaas uh, the, with, you know, you mentioned the djinn and how she was just totally freaked out by them. Didn't know any, didn't want to know anything about 'em, you know, but, uh, but that is a, uh, a concept, you know, and, um, that's just really fascinating to me that.

[01:03:22] This whole process has, I guess, maybe provided that deeper context that I was hoping we'd get. But I was, I had no idea what that would do for you. I wasn't even thinking about that, to be honest.

[01:03:42] Jeremy Spray: I wasn't either. It, it was not, like I said, I, I was in this for the show. Uh, I, I was, I was in it to make some jokes and I wasn't expecting that. I was also going to be, uh, a listener who was so affected by it. So thank you. Thank you both of you for, for being a part of that. Like, it's, it's been pretty great.

[01:04:02] Uh, but a complete, complete surprise.

[01:04:06] Don Early: Again, I don't know something about the Ted lasso I'm gonna bring up, I'm sorry I'm bringing it up again, but, The here is a show entirely devoted to not just the concept of kindness, but um, thoughtful approach to conflict, you know, in a, in a much deeper way, in a much more, I think, mature way.

[01:04:38] There's still the bullshit that you end up, you know, having to deal with, but the capacity for empathy that that show teaches in my opinion, is just awe inspiring.

[01:04:52] Jeremy Spray: Yeah.

Hidden Brain - How Your Beliefs Shape Reality

[01:04:52] Don Early: Um, and the other thing I wanted to point out, a prescription for both of you, and I'm going to do it again myself, uh, li of listening to the podcast for of the Hidden Brain.

[01:05:07] But specifically, uh, this episode called How Your Beliefs Shape Reality.

[01:05:13] And it is so on topic of what we have been talking about this whole time, it's not even, it, it's kind of bananas. Um, he talks, uh, that what the, the podcast uncovers is that there's this kind of three primal worldviews, and it comes down to whether or not you believe, I'm not, I'm not gonna get these right, but ultimately what I remember is that it, you know, it comes down to whether or not you believe the world is a good place or a bad place.

[01:05:46] Um, and they, they split that out into is the world beautiful or dull? is it, is the world beautiful or dull? Is the world alive? Or mechanical, alive might drive you to that sort of, there's a God and there's, or like there's at least a primal force of nature that's out there and it's alive and it's thriving versus it's completely indifferent and there's no purpose or a line, you know, you know, that sort of thing. Um, and then there's the third one. I can't remember what that is, but, uh, there is this kind of whole notion of whatever your primal worldview is, it changes your reality. And, and we've said it on this show before, that there really isn't a shared reality so much as, you know, sometimes they overlap, but everyone is living in their own reality shaped by their own beliefs.

[01:06:50] Um, and. Their own context informed by our perceptions, right? All of our senses and our, our perceptual things. But what blew my mind around this whole idea is that even plants do this, right, they have a spatial awareness of, and they navigate even the tiniest of insects, single cell organisms can navigate their environment.

[01:07:18] Um, and I don't know, brain science is starting to kind of tickle my nerves, so to speak, um, and, and sort of send me off in these other directions. But it really is interesting and it sort of plays into this notion of if you want to change your reality, which you can, you need to look at changing your primal worldview.

[01:07:47] and it's not something that you can do overnight, but it is something that over time, just like exercising or anything else that you can build towards that. So like if, if you're a person who thinks that the world is, oh, maybe it was the world is safe or the world is dangerous. I'm not sure if that was the other one, but, uh, that was talked about.

[01:08:10] And so if you live in a world where the world is dangerous and it's dull and it's mechanical versus if you, you know, live in a world where it's, everything is beautiful and, um, alive and safe, um, you know, there, there, there's a different sort of happiness

[01:08:37] Jeremy Spray: Yeah, you're gonna, 

[01:08:38] Don Early: there too. 

[01:08:38] Jeremy Spray: gonna, react to that differently

[01:08:40] Don Early: Yeah. 

[01:08:41] But, but how you interpret the world and how you approach it, um, and that sort of thing apparently is really traced back to your primal worldview.

[01:08:52] Um, and that in some cases, depending on what you're going through or what your life is like, examining, if that primal worldview is helping you anymore and recognizing that you could take steps to shift it. So instead of being dull practicing looking for five beautiful things, and seeing if you can kind of move the barometer an inch or something like that, a little bit here and there.

[01:09:27] Anyway, check that out. I'm gonna put a link in the show description as well. Uh, as oddly as it sounds, it, I do think it relates to the devil you don't know because it literally about how you perceive the world. And I think the devil comes into play on that approach of whether or not you think the world is a dangerous place or not.

[01:09:51] Um, they use the, the Disney movie, uh, Tangled, their reinterpretation of Rapunzel, right? And how her mom is just raises her on the idea that e the world is the most dangerous place and that everyone is out to get her. Sounds a little bit like your upbringing, Jeremy.

[01:10:13] Jeremy Spray: Yep. A 

[01:10:14] Don Early: Um, and so that movie. Is really kind of an arc of her discovery of, you know, sort of the opposite.

[01:10:23] Um, but it, it's also, as I reflected through that, I'm like, I'm not sure what I would, where I would land on any of these spectrums. Um, and I, because I do think the world is beautiful, but I do think cosmos is rather indifferent. But also I think there is energy that is out there and everything. I think life energy is relatively connected in a lot of ways, but I don't know what that looks like or means.

[01:10:56] I don't believe in a soul, but maybe I do, but it looks radically different. I don't think we look anything or whatever this energy is that inhabits. That is integrated in this body of mine. When I die, it is no longer me. Even the energy is wherever it go. Cuz energy can't be destroyed. Right. Physics,

[01:11:25] it's transformed. It's moved, it's changed. It's, you know, 

Midnight Mass

[01:11:31] Emily Quann: You're getting into discussion from, uh, Midnight Mass now,

[01:11:35] Don Early: yeah, I know, right? 

[01:11:38] God, I love that series. 

[01:11:39] Emily Quann: It's so good. It's so good. Jeremy, have you seen it?

[01:11:44] Jeremy Spray: I've seen the pilots and I, I, it's on my list. It's like the next one on my list right after I finish.

[01:11:51] Emily Quann: The most beautiful discussions of what happens after we die? Both basically secular and sectarian. I so, you know, opposing viewpoints, I 

[01:12:04] guess, but both absolutely.

[01:12:09] Don Early: Lovely. I would take 

[01:12:10] either 

[01:12:11] Emily Quann: I serious. Seriously, either. Absolutely. I mean, talk about a show giving, giving you hope, which was weird because it, like, it's a horror thing, but like, I, I came away from those just like in awe of.

[01:12:25] Of how both of those were presented and I just, I'm getting goosebumps even thinking about 'em right now because they just made me so happy. Both of them did. I just, I loved it. I need to watch the show again 

[01:12:38] Jeremy Spray: that's additional part of my homework. Then I want to, I wanna watch that too.

Conclusion - Setting up Season 3

[01:12:41] Don Early: Yeah. Is it, I I would watch that again. Yeah. I love that series. I think I've much like Ted Lasso. I think I've seen it twice now. So, Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Well, on that note, thank you all for listening to us. This is, this does conclude season two of the Devil You Don't Know. And season three, we will be kicking off here shortly, uh, by shortly, I mean, probably four weeks-ish, uh, or so.

[01:13:12] Um, that I can

[01:13:14] have time. Yeah. Uh, but I, I do have, uh, several interviews, uh, hopefully lining up. I hope that those lead to more interviews and season three might be all interviews. I don't know. We'll see. Uh, but to give you an idea of what I've got lined up, it's uh, really, really kind of fascinating and I can't wait to, so there, there is, uh, one on, um, like music theory or, um, Oh gosh, what is it?

[01:13:51] Uh, so there's like this, what did he call it? I can't even set this up properly. Um, there's like a combination of music theory and demonology, right? And there's like this idea of noise music and how noise music relates to the occult and to, 

[01:14:14] Emily Quann: noise music do you have 

[01:14:16] Jeremy Spray: Listen to 

[01:14:16] Emily Quann: of? Oh, we're just talking about like metal and stuff?

[01:14:22] no. 

[01:14:23] wait, what are we talking

[01:14:24] Don Early: We're, this is not 

[01:14:25] Jeremy Spray: So the, the. 

[01:14:26] Don Early: it's tool.

[01:14:27] Jeremy Spray: There is a, so, sorry. There's a track on Tools album from 15 years ago where, uh, all they, so their electronic equipment while they were taking a break turned itself on and they, they couldn't turn, figure out why it just was on. And so they hit record and let whatever sound was coming through, the amplifiers be recorded, and it is, it's got guttural sounds and different tones, and they believed it was a demonic connection, or at least that's what they put in the album, right.

[01:14:59] That they're, they're like, here's the voice. But, but like, there was a whole thing that was up and around that because, because several of the people came in afterwards, they're like, me too. And like, it's out. It's also happened to me. And so there was this love. So that's where, that's where my head was going.

[01:15:12] Is that about right?

[01:15:14] Don Early: I don't think it is. Uh, well, I mean, I think what you just described is correct, but I don't think that's where this person is going. Uh, but I could be wrong. Um, I, I, I think it, I think maybe there is more of, I'm aware of there being this notion of something called noise music. Um, and, uh, I don't.

[01:15:41] Emily Quann: I have not heard of that term before. I was thinking like you were talking about death metal or something, and No. Okay.

[01:15:46] Don Early: no. Yeah. So, um, anyway, that's about as much information I have on the topic. They said, Hey, uh, something about blah, blah, blah, occult noise, devil music theory, and, um, this guy named Eugene Thacker. Uh, I'm not interviewing Eugene Thacker, but I'm interviewing somebody who is, is into that. And so, um, that sounded amazingly fascinating and I had never heard about that before, so I'm interested to hear more about that.

[01:16:23] Um, there is a couple of folks, uh, of course I mentioned Pontifacts. We'll be, uh, coordinating with them and having some, uh, fun interview with that. And then there's another, uh, person from a podcast called, Uh, Popeular History. had no idea that there were so many, um, podcasts about the Pope or Popes. So, um, didn't, didn't realize how much of a phenomenon that was, but I guess that's a thing.

[01:17:01] So, uh, he had some really interesting ideas and one thing I was like, Hey, you know what you just said, I would love to hear about the history and the development behind Catholic exorcism 

[01:17:17] and, 

[01:17:18] Jeremy Spray: Yeah.

[01:17:19] Don Early: and that whole thing. And he's like, oh, yeah, I could totally do something on that. And then, you know, he's got this other stuff too, so I was like, Hey, we'll do it all.

[01:17:27] And so he's, he's in a deep in a research project right now, which includes that apparently. Um, so we'll be reaching out, uh, to them and probably in a couple months. Uh, and, uh, I'll have. Them on the show.

[01:17:43] Uh, there is a podcast that's just, uh, ending, uh, or maybe has ended called the History of the Bible Podcast.

[01:17:55] And it's this really, uh, interesting Australian fellow, uh, who does the podcast. His name is Jerry Stevens. Uh, history of the Bible Podcast. Super thorough, but also a lot of fun. And so, um, I talked with. Over email and ask him if he'd be interested to come on the show. And he is like, I'm just an old man, but I'd be happy to come on

[01:18:21] I'm like,

[01:18:22] Emily Quann: Nice.

[01:18:24] Don Early: that sounds amazing. So, um, yeah. And then, uh, something about, uh, has, have either of you heard about the thought experiment, Maxwell's Demon?

[01:18:33] Emily Quann: No,

[01:18:35] Jeremy Spray: No 

[01:18:35] Don Early: didn't know about it either. And so that's a thing and someone's gonna talk about that.

[01:18:41] Emily Quann: right on.

[01:18:42] Jeremy Spray: board learning season three. 

[01:18:44] Don Early: Yeah. Yeah. So lots of stuff coming. Stay tuned. Um, 

[01:18:50] Jeremy Spray: Thanks for 

[01:18:51] Don Early: up. 

[01:18:52] Emily Quann: Thank you. 

[01:18:53] Don Early: This has been the Devil You Don't Know Podcast. In fact, this marks the end of season two, season three will start in a few weeks with interviews and conversations with people from a variety of backgrounds. Follow us on social media, where we are at devil podcast. And Twitter at the devil podcast. And you can find all of our episodes on your favorite podcast platform. 

[01:19:21] If you're joining the show and want to support us on Patreon, you can find us at where you can join our Discord server. Get episodes before they're released to the public and collaborate with the show.

[01:19:39] Thank you for listening. Now, go take your devil out for coffee and learn something. 

The End of S2
The Road So Far
More interviews
Thanking the Patreon Supporters
Don's 2023 so far
Ted Lasso
The Dark Spell - The Devil Within
Emily's story and The Voice within
Reviewing Depth Psychology - Reintegration
Awakening - in Vegas
Creating Empathy
Emily's Journey
Jeremy's Journey
Hidden Brain - How Your Beliefs Shape Reality
Midnight Mass
Conclusion - Setting up Season 3